Pulling power of Proto 1,2 and 3 engines.

I'd say it matters most what type of inclines are on your layout. The steeper the hills, the less cars each engine can safely pull.

Then, it matters how much drag is on each car. A lighted passenger car can have drag on the wheel's pick-ups. How much does each car weigh? It matters when going up hills.

If you just want an easy answer, I'd put 2 engines on a 40 car freight train.

Thank you for the information. My layout is totally flat. I eliminated the inclines years ago. I was thinking of a lashup with 4 total electrical motors. Do you know the power difference between Premier electrical motors and Railking motors?

@Williamm posted:

Thank you for the information. My layout is totally flat. I eliminated the inclines years ago. I was thinking of a lashup with 4 total electrical motors. Do you know the power difference between Premier electrical motors and Railking motors?

In MTH diesel they are the same motor, same gearing, same wheel size, same electronics. There is no difference in pulling power between railking and premier. Premier diesels have longer physical length, more details, more features, but at motor size and gearing- it's the same part.

Thank you Vernon. Great information and a big help to me. One last thing, what about steam engine electrical motors. Any difference in them between Premier and Railking?

Harry

Yes, but depends on the engine. A railking non-articulated Steam engine has one RS385 can motor. An articulated Railking like a challenger, bigboy, or allegheny has 2 motors, one per drive block.

Premier steam uses a larger single motor pittman style motor to run the entire engine. So a T-1 and the Bigboy- still one motor- but a Pittman rather than a smaller RS385.

OK. Would it be safe to say that I could run up to 20 freight or passenger cars all day with a single Premier or Railking diesel? If I go over 20 cars I should probably go with a two engine diesel lashup?  I think I will stay away from using steam engines on consists over 10 cars.

@Williamm posted:

OK. Would it be safe to say that I could run up to 20 freight or passenger cars all day with a single Premier or Railking diesel? If I go over 20 cars I should probably go with a two engine diesel lashup?  I think I will stay away from using steam engines on consists over 10 cars.

Out of which side of my mouth do you want that answer? I'm in the repair business side of this.

Opinion: I think an MTH in general- even in a Railking has some of best gearing and motors and bearings. They are the right materials, machined to high tolerance and intentionally designed to last. Little details like proper bronze alloy for maximum lifespan. That said, abuse is just never a good thing.

Will I every once in a blue moon run a longer consist? Sure, maybe 10-20 cars, nowhere near "all day". I have a fleet of engines, and a session is about 3-4 hours at the local club. I rotate what engine I run on a given week from the fleet and honestly there are engines that get run once every 2 years.

Again, I'm the repair side of this. I have seen an MTH Premier Diesel with burned up motors that also killed the PS3 board. I've also seen a Railking steam engine the same fate- motor fried, it cooked the windings- they shorted- blew the boards. I don't have the full story on how many cars, how much abuse, or how long this went on for. In all the repairs- that's 2 engines that come to mind I know died from likely serious overload and did it until they cooked.

Unless you have a bottomless wallet or bank account of cash- I might ease up on seeing how long of a consist i could "run all day".

Part2- generally a lash up or MU may not mean 2X pulling power. In fact, unless matching is perfect (MTH is pretty decent in matching IMO and experience) but even then, there can be situations where it's not some balanced load and worse, the second engine may be drag- not push- just the nature of speed control and traction. Again, in general, a lashup adds a layer of complication to the train, it adds load to the electrical system and wiring of your track and power systems, it's another opportunity for failure to kick in. Again, this banking on the engines always being a perfect match, the load balanced and not one engine darn near dragging the other, your power system and wiring now powering 2 engines and even more current, just the fact that the potential for any failure is more than double

All that to say, your railroad, your rules- but also your wallet.

Thank you, Vernon. Some great stuff to think about! Maybe I will stay with a 10 car train.

Also keep in mind the weight of your cars. Modernly, manufacturers are moving for NMRA weight standards, so those longer cars get pretty heavy.

One way to gauge the load is to use an ammeter.  Amps times volts equals watts so assuming you are using no more then 18 volts you can figure out power being used that way.  Perhaps someone else like Vernon or John could chime in on the maximum current ratings for the PS2 or PS3 boards but you could monitor that with your ammeter and assuming they are balanced you can add cars until you are at perhaps 2/3 of max.  Also to Vernons point run the 2 locos you want to lash up a few inches apart and be sure they stay the same distance apart after several feet of movement.  If not they will fight each other.  You can measure the current of any lighted or active cars in the train before adding the locos to get the actual current the locos are using.

Thank you, Doug. Great information! Until this moment I did not take into consideration the interior lights of 20 or more passenger cars and their impact on power draw. Your information is a great help to me!

Thank you,

Harry

Hello Matt,

Thank you for your information. Do you have a recommendation on what kind of weight scale I should get?

Harry

Does anyone know the maximum current ratings of the PS1, PS2 and PS3 boards? See comment from Doug Link concerning this question.

Correction to Vernon's statement about RK Diesel motors.  RK can have smaller 365 motors while premier have larger 385.  The rectifier I believe is 10 amps, but the engine should never get that high from pulling load.  You need to make sure you have a good transformer and also remember you have a load from lighted cars especially bulbs.  You can put them on track separately and power up to see the load they put on your transformer.  Smoke adds about .5 to 7amps.  This all goes against the rating of your transformer amps before you even get the engine moving.  I am pretty sure clubs run some pretty large consist without issues.  Too much and your going to loose traction and slip or stall engine.  That is when it is way too much.  G

I have failed MTH Premier steam engines, although I do not remember if the motor and/or the electronics failed. (Each engine was repaired by an MTH Tech.) The reason in each case was a traction tire coming loose and binding between the wheel tread and a brake hanger. The engine stalled on a grade and was probably stalled for a minute or so until I discovered it at the far end of my layout. (I was running a few more trains at the time and did not notice the change in noise level.)

Bottom line for me is to make sure that an engine, steam or diesel, running with traction tires has them firmly in place with no tire stretch or binding.

I have operated two MTH Premier diesels with "every car I have", 72 I believe, at scale speeds up to 45 smph on level track with no problem at all. I also run a single MTH Premier Berkshire on a 3% grade with a 35 car train, with 25 cars of the train on a grade with no problem. In my experience, an MTH Premier engine with tires will pull stumps. I have never had a motor failure other than the above two incidents mentioned. and I have never had a gearing failure.

Hello Hudson,

Thank you for the information. What I have learned so far from this OGR Forum is that I will pull up to 30 cars. I believe if I stay at 30, I will not have to worry about electric motor failure. I now know that I could pull many more if I want to.

Reference the tires. I have had the same problem. If Mike Wolf would have stayed active in the Company longer maybe we could have convinced him to find a solution to failed rubber tires. There has to be a better rubber product that will not fail.

Thanks again Hudson.

GGG

Thanks for your input. I use the Z4000 transformer. Have never had a problem with them. Mike Wolf's greatest addition to our hobby.

@Williamm posted:

I am going to build 20 to 40 car consists. Some will be passenger trains and some will be freight trains. How many cars can a two electrical motor engine (Railking or Premier) safely pull without overloading the motors? How many can you safely pull with a two engine lashup that has a total of four electrical motors?

Truthfully, on a flat layout, I don't see any real issue with pulling with a single locomotive.

Here's a single Legacy Mallet pulling a 54 car tank train, including 2.5% grades.

Here's two Legacy U28C engines pulling 115 cars.  There is a 2% grade out of view on the other side of the layout.