Thoughts on building steep decline track

I recommend a cog system

How "quickly" is as quickly as possible?

Thanks. I’m not looking for a cog system. Just ideas on how to build the decline. How to transition the track to decline and then back to flat. 

Right now the cars bottom out on my transition track price. 

That's why I ask the first question.   The transition required will be dependent on the largest locomotive (and wheel geometry) that will use the track.  Are you going for diesels or steam?  If steam, I'd be looking at something in the line of an 0-4-0 or an 0-6-0 to minimize the amount of transition you need to and from the incline.

Whatever is possible.  I can do it over 1, 2, or three feet. Quickest is best to get proper placement of the accessory. 

I will limit this to diesels and coal cars. 

I think it's pretty clear that you need to plan on at least three feet, and I'm tend to doubt even that will work!  You're looking at a 16 degree slope trying to do 6" in three feet, I suspect that's a tall order for most model trains.  I think they only way you'll really know is pick the locomotive and then do some experiments, you're in uncharted waters here.

I think the cog railway is sounding more like a good option...

Maybe. Lol.  But the incline on the Lionel coal ramp is pretty steep 

I had a coal ramp, and the biggest problem was pushing the cars up the ramp.  Close to that was the mess it made when combined with the coal loader!  The mess is likely prototypical when dealing with coal, but I decided to unload the whole rig.

I used to love that acc.   Coal is always a mess.  I have given up running loaded cars.  It always finds a way to get out.  There are more than a few piles in my layout.  I figure they are prototypical too. Lol 

The transitions from level to sloped should not be done with flat pieces of track but rather with tracks curved in the vertical direction - but probably difficult to make. GRJ's suggestion to use a 0-4-0 steam engine is a good one because all 4 wheels can remain in contact with the rails through the transition. If you use a typical O-gauge 0-6-0 steamer with the axles mounted rigidly (not independently sprung), an axle will lose contact during the vertical transitions.

MELGAR

davidbross posted:

Maybe. Lol.  But the incline on the Lionel coal ramp is pretty steep 

The Lionel coal ramp was designed to be backed into, with the locomotive remaining on flat track.  The transition works for the short O27 cars.

Chris S.

If you're feeling so inclined, you could construct a manually or mechanically operated car elevator with either a short tail track at the top for a mule, or a winch system. That would maximize your horizontal space usage, but would complicate operations. 

Otherwise, you will need to curve your transition track piece as suggested above, or extend your grade. 

That would be fun.  If i had the skills I would make an elevator.  Fun idea. 

Let us go back to the beginning and I admit I was joking about the cog system.  What are the accessories that you are wanting to use in this short space.  Pictures showing the location might help.

I had little difficulty bending Gargraves Flex track in the vertical to transition top & bottom on a short incline. I was only doing 8% but it worked fine with every loco (all fairly short diesel & steam; "O31 capable" is one of my loco & rolling-stock criteria). I did also try 12% but my strongest puller (an O27-capable F3 with Magnetraction) could only haul 2-3 cars up that roller coaster.

I have a very limited production coal loader.  It’s too tall for the room.  So I need to drop 6 “ to get it to fit. Hence the track level also dropping to accommodate. I had given up but I found one small area I could put it.  

Ok, it sounds like I do not need the engine to be able make this climb.  I just need the cars to be able to be pushed and pulled up and down the decline.  If that is the case then the only real problem I see is keeping the couplers from disconnecting as they make the initial descent.  Putting the curve at the top and bottom of the track should solve your 'bottoming' problem.  If the engine is operating on a level surface size of engine is not a problem.

or I am totally missing something so it is back to the 'cog'.  And goodnight to all.

Would you consider using a pw Lionel 41 Army switcher ? They're geared low and won't start free wheeling down a steep grade.  

I have two 41's  pulling approx. 14 cars. At one point they go down a grade about 5" with in 2 1/2 ft, then start to climb back up the 5" within about 5 ft. The reason for the sudden down grade and climb back up on my layout, the whole train completely disappears in a 3' mountain, goes down under the platform and starts to make a climb back up to exit the other end of the mountain.  

% grade is  change in elevation divided by the run X 100%.   5" /30"  X 100 = 16.6% grade. pretty steep.   I did a lot of work on a small layout to get my grades down to 3.8%, still a bit much.  Run distances need to be 12' (144") to 15' (180"). IMO.  Curves became a large part of the grades.   Mike CT 

I use multiple units most of the time.  Down a bigger issue than up.   Atlas SW9s all powered. 

Here is a look.  Click on the triangle.  Best wishes with your project.   Mike CT.  

I am having a tough time imagining what you are trying to create but you might want to try the Lionel Lift Bridge as an elevator of sorts. From personal experience a 5% grade is fine with a heavy consist until the corners get tight (O36). From then on a loco with subpar traction tires tends to struggle. 16% over three feet isn't realistic because you would have to transition to avoid uncoupling issues. At max you could probably get away with 5% transition per car length, i.e. 5% for the first foot, 10% for the second and so on. As GRJ said, it's best to experiment off the layout and see what works with your specific equipment.

I'm glad David is doing this, I look forward to the experiments.

Just have to steal this thread for one posting.  Actually my thought deserves a thread all it's own.

Mike CT,  Every photo I have ever seen of his is a magazine quality example of whatever his comment covers.  The original layout, the room alteration to accommodate expansion, Mike's track plan, his neat electrical work, symmetry of overall appearance, the whole thing is so presentable!!  Thanks Mike for what you bring to the screen!

Tom Tee,    Thank you,  Mike CT  

Coming from an artist like Tom, that's pretty high praise!

You can keep the engines off the grade by using a few empty ore cars as a "chain" for moving the work ore cars up and down the ramp.

If the transitions are too great for the couplers to stay vertically aligned, you could take them off their trucks and body-mount them, like the 2RS guys do.

How would this be handled in the 1:1 world? Surely there are examples out there.

A few years back I did an O-gauge layout using old Lionel Super O track, and I had a 10º grade over the span of about 3 1/2 feet. My postwar turbines were ok going downward. My 681 and 682 could just about make the climb upward by themselves, but with any consist behind them they could not. As they say, however, your mileage may vary.

IME, the secret to any trouble free grade is a well laid out vertical curve transition.  However I find that a 36" transition length is usually needed to conform the grade percentage to top and bottom level for each vertical curve. 

I'm impressed, but there's one factor in play here that he won't have.  When the locomotives are coming up the steep grade, there are still cars going down the steep grade, so you're actually not experiencing all the load.  Part of the cars are helping push you back up the grade.

OTOH, it's still pretty impressive the two little switchers get the job done!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm impressed, but there's one factor in play here that he won't have.  When the locomotives are coming up the steep grade, there are still cars going down the steep grade, so you're actually not experiencing all the load.  Part of the cars are helping push you back up the grade.

OTOH, it's still pretty impressive the two little switchers get the job done!

grj, Thank you for the nice words. I'm reposting the video, because the first 2 times I posted it, I went to view it and just got a black screen w/sound, so I deleted it both times, wasn't aware it could be viewed.

Actually when I first test ran both 41 switchers, I had much less freight cars, everything worked fine. 

TRUSSMAN, thank you for posting it again. I really enjoyed seeing that, I watched it more than once! When we were growing up, the little 41 switcher my Dad has got plenty of run time! 

Rusty

Sound ok, no video, black screen.

Same for me on Firefox.

I originally uploaded the video using Internet Explorer browser, I couldn't view it w/ IE browser, then switched to view it using Google browser and I  was able to view the video.   I'll try uploading it using Google browser.

Let me know if it can be viewed in the post. 

Great sound!!

Lots of great thoughts here

Prototype incline l can think of, that moved empty and loaded logging cars up and down parallel, steep, tracks, was one on the Yosemite Valley RR.  Think it used a cable and weight of loaded cars to pull empty cars up.

Trussman,

When I try to play either of your posted videos, I hear sound but only see a black box.

Chuck

PRR1950 posted:

Trussman,

When I try to play either of your posted videos, I hear sound but only see a black box.

Chuck

I can view it when I use the Google browser.