Thoughts on conventional classics sets

Here's the original press release with some info you were looking for.

https://www.lionelcollectors.o...?id=132&catId=12

I have the GG1 set 2124W with the all the Madison cars and the NYC F3 freight set 2185W. (not listed as it came out later)

Both are packed away and not easily accessible for examination.

I have quite few of the CC sets. All good runners and fun sets. The Orbiter Set powered A unit Alco had some minor issues as I recall. Coffee grinder gears for some but mine ran fine after I let it rip for an hour on the track.

Burlington passenger set, Anniversary set, SF freight set, Berk and Madisons, Orbiter set, and a few more.

I have a CC GP set with passenger cars and a separate sale GG1. The GP runs well but the e unit is sometimes flakey. Very dependent on transformer used. The GG1s came with a truck spacer washer misplaced. Moving it between the truck and frame from between the frame and motor fixes the problem. The Pullmors work well but are metric and parts don’t interchange with post war Pullmors. Sound on the GG1 is loud and deep, very impressive.

Pete

I like the conventional classics, some have their quirks as mentioned, but most are solid runners, ....I like the fact that sometimes they show up way cheaper than the original harder to find Postwar items that are made from unobtaium,......I picked up the Berk set with the Madison cars at a swap meet for dirt, .....it adorns my Postwar shelves, and sometimes make a parade lap or two,...Id never purchase a real-deal postwar outfit like that cause of the scarcity and cost, ......I think they did the JC Trainmaster too.?.?....no??...that’d be on my list too,.....

Pat

I have the GG1 set with the Madison cars.  When I first purchased the set I quickly found out that one of the engine's gear boxes had not been lubed and it ran terrible.  After lubing it has run great.  I also have a set of NYC F3s and a New Haven set of F3s which I bought as separate sales.   Both sets ran great out of the box.

I’ve got the Burlington GP7 set with an add on car or two. Like OKHIKER, the locomotive in my set had virtually no grease.  This wasn’t an issue as I normally open up every new locomotive I buy and add grease along with oiling all wheels and applying some conductive oil to the pickups. This also serves to identify and correct any pinched wires.

I’ve run this set around one of our Christmas trees every year and, other than performing routine maintenance prior to each holiday season, it has been an attractive, reliable, well running set.

Curt

@OKHIKER posted:

I have the GG1 set with the Madison cars.  

This was the only set I purchased and I wanted this mostly for the Madison cars as they were really close to the originals in color plus the add-on observation. While I did operate the GG1 for testing, I usually run the set with my Century Club GG1 as it has TMCC. I should probably sell the Conventional Classics GG1, but the decoration on the shell is fantastic. To me, this was the most interesting set of the series.

Charlie

Thanks for all the replies. Appreciate the feedback. I have some TMCC and some conventional, all running from a PW ZW. I like the idea of the CC sets, but without being able to have one in my hand to inspect, am cautious. I worry about items like gears being made of plastic or nylon where if not designed or assembled correctly will just burn up. I too always take any new purchase apart, check everything, grease and lube and check the play in gear mesh etc.

Interesting that the new pulmor is metric. Sigh lol

I was also looking at the NYC F3 set and the GG1 set. Cant afford the pw versions, at least not in the condition I want them in.

I have the NYC F3 set. It’s been a solid runner. Only quirk is that sometimes the bell and horn won’t work. It seems that if I slide the sound switch to off, then back to on, the problem is solved.

I have them all along with the Postwar Celebration Series Sets. They all ran fine, except for the Orbitor Set as mentioned above, after adding a ball bearing to the motor armature, the grinder noise went away.

My only complaint out of all the sets was the Berkshire in the PWC set, the Railsounds was not loud enough, and the 3444 Erie animated Gondola in the Rio Grande and New Haven F3 sets was such a poor performer, the can motor, barely moves the cop and hobo.

All the sets were wonderful, you cant go wrong with any of the sets. Just add a heat sink to the GG1 Passenger Set, that thing got warm!

@ZWPOWER13 posted:

I have them all along with the Postwar Celebration Series Sets. They all ran fine, except for the Orbitor Set as mentioned above, after adding a ball bearing to the motor armature, the grinder noise went away.

My only complaint out of all the sets was the Berkshire in the PWC set, the Railsounds was not loud enough, and the 3444 Erie animated Gondola in the Rio Grande and New Haven F3 sets was such a poor performer, the can motor, barely moves the cop and hobo.

All the sets were wonderful, you cant go wrong with any of the sets. Just add a heat sink to the GG1 Passenger Set, that thing got warm!

Mark, did you move the spacer washer on the GG1 truck? If not the wheel flanges rub on the frame creating a lot of drag and overheating the motor and E unit.

Pete

My Orbitor set Alco engine burned up the first motor. The replacement runs but gets super hot so the set does not get much track time any more.

@Norton posted:

Mark, did you move the spacer washer on the GG1 truck? If not the wheel flanges rub on the frame creating a lot of drag and overheating the motor and E unit.

Pete

The engine runs super smooth, I did not know about moving the spacer washer. I don’t have any issues with the wheel flange is rubbing up on the frame. I just know that electronic unit gets super hot

@Norton posted:

Mark, did you move the spacer washer on the GG1 truck? If not the wheel flanges rub on the frame creating a lot of drag and overheating the motor and E unit.

Did not know about this, and since I do not run this engine, I will take a look. Thanks for the heads up.

Charlie

Shortly after the GG1s came out folks were noticing the heat from the E unit under the hood. Mine would shut down aftet a few minutes of running. I ended up making a new heat sink with added fins. I also added a micro fan from a dead graphics card. That took care of the shutdown problem but it still got pretty warm.

Then later someone else discovered a truck shim out of place. It was located between the motor and the frame instead of between the truck and frame. Now it will run all day.

Pete

Fellow OGR member Joe Krasko got me on to these, and they work well.

https://www.adafruit.com/product/3082

The heat sink addresses the symptom but the misplaced washer is the cause that should be addressed.

Pete

I too have the GG1 set, if I'm reading this right. There is a motor shim on Top of the frame that should be moved to Under the frame.

@Jim 1939 posted:

I too have the GG1 set, if I'm reading this right. There is a motor shim on Top of the frame that should be moved to Under the frame.

Thats what some of us have found. It may not have affected all of these engines. If yours has been running OK it may have been assembled correctly at the factory.

Pete

I have the B&O Budd Cars and am very happy with them.

No it did not run OK, I quit using it cause it got hot. I even removed the glazed windows but that didn't help. With this info I will remove the motors and look for the shims.

GG-1 shims ? - are we talking about the spring steel grounding washer used in F-3, GP’s, etc ?

I have the 2340 GG-1 CC and it seems to run fine however - I will check

Thank you

Also - I’ve been running the CC 2367 Wabash F3 AB units and the 2276W Budd set over the Christmas season and they run great - they seem to be running smoother and smoother as they break in the more I run them 👍🏼

Thinking of adding ERR TMCC command and sounds to the Budd set - has anyone been adding command to their CC sets ?

Thx

Joe S

I have the Sears C&O set, the X-628 and the New Haven set. I have replaced all their motors once. They just quit. The Pullmor's are a easy fix and I but them when they are half off. The FA I had to replace as well.  I do notice that the rollers get hot quickly. I run for 10 min then cool for 20.

Joe S,

Prior to the Conventional Classics line Lionel had marketed the Postwar Celebration Series (PWC).  Like the Conventional Classics these are largely made off the original postwar tooling, or when they are not they at least mimic postwar pieces nicely.  The difference is that they have TMCC and RailSounds built-in from the factory.

As an example I have the Wabash 2240 A-Unit (6-14852) and 2240C B-Unit (6-14853) from the PWC series and I'm very pleased with them.

You could consider selling your Conventional Classics and buying PWC's instead.  I'm sure it would be a less expensive way of getting command control than installing ERR.  I don't know offhand if your Budd car was ever released in PWC but it's worth a search.

Mike

Were the PWC items made prior to 2000 made in the USA?

Terrance

I know my Post-War Celebration WP F3's were, although the corresponding Zephyr cars were made in China.  Top quality on both items though:  purchased new and still running strong!

@dorfj2 posted:

Also - I’ve been running the CC 2367 Wabash F3 AB units and the 2276W Budd set over the Christmas season and they run great - they seem to be running smoother and smoother as they break in the more I run them 👍🏼

Thinking of adding ERR TMCC command and sounds to the Budd set - has anyone been adding command to their CC sets ?

Thx

Joe S

I am adding TMCC and Railsounds to the New Haven F3 Conventional Classics set, I will leave the rest alone, I was going to do the NYC F3's, but I already have the Century Club ones with all of the electronics, and all of my PWC items have TMCC/Legacy and Railsounds.

I have been required to upgrade or swap out sound cards on a several of my Conventional Classics. My 646 Hudson was unbearable. The bell and whistle sounds would randomly trigger non-stop. I removed the sound card and replaced it with an older generic steam card. My 2332 GG-1 also had one of the early sound cards which would constantly glitch, make strange sounds, or fail to trigger altogether. For this engine I purchased a GG-1 Railsounds Lite card during Lionel's 50% off sale. The horn and bell sounds are far better and I have the added benefit of electric "prime mover" type sounds.

I just don't see the benefit of installing TMCC or ERR components in these Conventional Classics from a cost standpoint. A typical F3 AA upgrade would involve an AC commander for the powered unit, Railsounds Commander, and some kind of mini commander for the non-powered unit. Don't forget you'll also be buying two coil couplers. You'll also probably want to remove that dumb on-board potentiometer from the Railsounds commander card and tack on some wires that run directly to the volume pot already provided on the engine. Otherwise, you'll be removing the shell every time you need to adjust max volume. You would be dumping nearly $300 into a set of engines which only costs about $200. And if you wanted to MU those Budd 3 car sets, you would be looking at  6 electrocouplers, an AC Commander, Railsounds commander, and 2 mini commanders. Of course this is usually where someone clever steps in to say how easy and cheap (but ugly) it would be to drill a bunch of holes, cobble up some wires and tether it all together like a string of sausage links.

Watch out for the Chinese-made Pullmors. Some run much better than others. The sheet metal Alco FA's and spur-gear driven steam locos run terribly out of the box. At best they sound like a coffee grinder. At worst, they jam completely. These engines have required extensive adjustments and work (including new bearings) to perform well. Next in line are the F3's and Geeps. They both use the same type of motor which performs adequately although significantly rougher than earlier US-made counterparts. The smoothest running motors in the Conventional Classics line are those found in the GG-1 and early cast frame Alcos. They are the only motors produced with almost identical quality to the postwar version including metal brushplate bearings. They run very smoothly and reliably in my experience.

I agree with the above.  Purchased a CC baby Hudson set new and it was a mess out of the box.  Loco required adjustment to get to run correctly and the tender had a short that I had to correct.  Bell still sounds randomly from time to time.  Worst thing is that it was a Christmas gift for one of my boys so it required ER on Christmas morning since I didn’t know of the reputation of these and hadn’t test run it upon arrival, and I had the added stress of having him upset because it was shorting out, derailing, etc.  A black bonnet Santa Fe for my other son ran and runs fine as if it were any other postwar F3.  The Hudson runs fine now post corrections, fwiw, but not confidence inspiring and not what you should have to do.

If it were me, I would buy from the PWC sets - the quality on these is more consistent.  Or if you really want a CC set, test run it before you buy it to make sure that it is right.  The problems on this set and another Amtrak HHP set debacle on Christmas morning is what caused me to try out MTH locomotives.  Not that they will be viable shortly either.  Long way of saying buyer beware.

@GregR posted:

I have been required to upgrade or swap out sound cards on a several of my Conventional Classics. My 646 Hudson was unbearable. The bell and whistle sounds would randomly trigger non-stop. I removed the sound card and replaced it with an older generic steam card. My 2332 GG-1 also had one of the early sound cards which would constantly glitch, make strange sounds, or fail to trigger altogether. For this engine I purchased a GG-1 Railsounds Lite card during Lionel's 50% off sale. The horn and bell sounds are far better and I have the added benefit of electric "prime mover" type sounds.

I am curious how you installed the GG1 Lite Railsounds board, was it a direct replacement for the original sound board of horn and bell? I may now do this to my CC GG1

Thanks!

@ZWPOWER13 posted:

I am curious how you installed the GG1 Lite Railsounds board, was it a direct replacement for the original sound board of horn and bell? I may now do this to my CC GG1

Here is how it was done. Video included with results. With this card, a backup battery can be included to avoid sound interruptions and have a shut down sequence. The PCB is 691RSL1010.

@GregR posted:

I have been required to upgrade or swap out sound cards on a several of my Conventional Classics. My 646 Hudson was unbearable. The bell and whistle sounds would randomly trigger non-stop. I removed the sound card and replaced it with an older generic steam card.

Did the modifications to your 646 Hudson help? Mine exhibits the same behavior so I was curious.

@Randy_B posted:

Did the modifications to your 646 Hudson help? Mine exhibits the same behavior so I was curious.

My first attempt at correcting the sound was to replace the sound car with a new one. But that didn't help. I wanted to find a solution where I could have a simple whistle and bell without going to the expense of something like a Railsounds Commander.

The solution that worked for me was to purchase a 691-PCB1-116 motherboard RS/SS, and a 691-PCB1-07B Signalsounds / steam whistle / bell board. Again, I bought these two cards at the 50% off sale, so it was a cheap fix.

It took some work to cobble this together. But now both the whistle and bell are activated decisively and reliably. Plus, the sounds produced are very similar to what was originally included in the Conventional Classic tender.

Thanks so much for the information and images - I really appreciate it!

I can vouch for the Conventional Classics 6-38354 reissue of the very desirable UP Anniversary set. Decoration and fit and finish are excellent for a reissue, operation with its single Pullmor is smooth and quiet, and the bell and horn are simple but appealing in my sample.  Ed Boyle wrote a generally favorable review of this set in OGR Run 266. He did criticize the size of the nose decal and some aspects of new vs. original 2400 series cars, but other than that he seemed satisfied for the money. There are two add-on cars that enhance the fun factor and it is a hoot to unpackage a reissue set boxed much like a postwar original. Just beware that the cardboard of the internal boxes for the passenger cars is too thin.

No one appears to have mentioned in this string the desirability and current affordability of the Century Club 1 (the first CC) offerings which are TMCC equipped and USA-made. Some of the entries such as the 671 and the GG1 are actually pretty darned nice. I mated a CC1 GG1 with a full 5 car set of the circa 1990 Irvingtons (made in Bakelite) long before the reissued GG1 set.

Have fun!

Bob

@Bob Bubeck posted:

I can vouch for the Conventional Classics 6-38354 reissue of the very desirable UP Anniversary set. Decoration and fit and finish are excellent for a reissue, operation with its single Pullmor is smooth and quiet, and the bell and horn are simple but appealing in my sample.  Ed Boyle wrote a generally favorable review of this set in OGR Run 266. He did criticize the size of the nose decal and some aspects of new vs. original 2400 series cars, but other than that he seemed satisfied for the money. There are two add-on cars that enhance the fun factor and it is a hoot to unpackage a reissue set boxed much like a postwar original. Just beware that the cardboard of the internal boxes for the passenger cars is too thin.

Bob

The Anniversary Set is the first of the CC sets that I bought and one of my favorites.

And thanks for mentioning the add-on cars. I have totally forgotten about them and  always intended on getting them. I seem to recall very high prices for them on the auction site but will have to start looking around again.

@GregR posted:

Here is how it was done. Video included with results. With this card, a backup battery can be included to avoid sound interruptions and have a shut down sequence. The PCB is 691RSL1010.

Thank you!! I am going to do this to mine!!!!

@johnstrains posted:

The Anniversary Set is the first of the CC sets that I bought and one of my favorites.

And thanks for mentioning the add-on cars. I have totally forgotten about them and  always intended on getting them. I seem to recall very high prices for them on the auction site but will have to start looking around again.

Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but as I recall I picked my pair later on as a 2-pack at an August (2014?) Lionel open house for $44 ($22 each) while they were still located in Ohio.

Good luck in your search.

Bob