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Before I go any further, let me state that "up to this point" everything has been working fine.  Every wiring connection I have made to the Terminal Block has cause absolutely no issues or problems, "up to this point".  When I reach the problem point, I will use my quote marked catch phrase to end the sentence.

I am re-wiring my layout.  I have a 24 screw MTH Terminal Board.  The one where the elevated screws are the grounds and the lower screws are the hots.  I am using 12 gauge wire this time around.  Hasn't cause one iota of an issue since I began.  I am using 16 gauge wire for my feeder lines from the track pieces out to the 12 gauge buss lines.  No issues there either.  I have run 10 booster lines to various parts of the oval system I have set up.  There is a method to the madness but understand for the purpose of this problem, I have found a way to cut down on wire runs while still connecting 22 drops to the Terminal Board.  How?  By doubling up where possible.

In some cases I just run two 12 gauge wires from a drop location, a black and a red, to the Terminal Board, hook them to the screws, and test.  Test is done by generating power to the TIU and seeing if what just happened, happens.  If it buzzes endlessly without throwing the circuit breaker on my powerhouse 180 brick by Lionel, I check the voltage being generated to the screws via the TIU with my meter.  19.1 max, as low as 18.7.  But it doesn't throw the breaker.  As I type this I am beginning to wonder if my brick is busted.  We suffered a split second power outage about 8:10 or so this evening.  The problem started after that.  I didn't suffer the problem until I had finished running my tenth of 14 connections.  Same wire size configuration, same attachment configuration, same heat shrink tube/soldering combo connectors on both the red and black wires.  I immediately unhooked connection 10 when it threw the breaker.  But that didn't stop the problem.  I ran connection 9 and 8 before the outage, and no issues arose.  Both connections consist of my double up method.  In this case a sort of triple up.  One feeder is connected to a track piece, then runs under two other track pieces to a second set of feeder lines where they are twisted together, black together, red together.

At that point a black and red 12 gauge buss wire is connected to the joined feeder wires.  From there I run those two wires up a length of track to a third and final set of feeders coming out of another track piece.  Once connected, I have now connected 3 of my 22 total on one buss line.  So instead of running 3 separate track pieces using three sets of black and red wires, I just use one run to connect 3 booster drops to one set of screws.  I finish the run by sending the buss wires to the board and connect each to its respective hot and ground screw.  The first time I did it everything was fine.  I turned on the brick, all my switch track lights lit up, the gentle hum of the brick was steady and consistent.  I checked the power output, 19.1, checked each booster location, 19.1 at the closest one, 18.8 at the two farthest ones, all is well.

"Up to this point".  The second time I did this, same song, same verse, different set of tracks, all went well.  Wires meshed nicely, heat shrink solder tubes melted nicely, no burn marks in the carpet, my layout is on the floor not a table, ran the wires along side the track just like before, two fork connectors later I was done with run number 10.  Turned on the brick, hummed two seconds, click.  I thought maybe I had burned a hole in one of the connectors.  Checked both solder points, nothing seemed amiss, so I unhooked 10.  Thought, ok, if 10 is causing the problem, let's see.  Unhooked it, turned on the brick, hummed 2 seconds, click.  Odd, the last time I turned on the brick without connection 10 it worked fine.  So I unhooked my 9th connection, the one I did before 10.  Brick, hum, click.  Finally I decided to check one other thing before I came up here and fielded the problem.  I took my meter and set the prongs in place and when I turned on the brick, it hummed 2 seconds, then threw the breaker but not before I read 11.3.

I can see over voltage, like 23 or 24 kicking the breaker, but 11.3?  For that matter, where did my 19.1 go?  Is this an over load issue, and under load issue, do you think my brick has been compromised by the power outage?  Is my TIU fuse shot?  If it were a breaker box issue seems like the brick wouldn't fire up at all.  I usually relate circuit breaker issues with crossed wires or over amping.  A 15 suddenly reads 16, that kind of thing.  But all I can tell you is that "up to this point" all 9 of my prior connections, in route to a total of 14 when i'm done, haven't caused the first issue with any of the mechanical parts in this machine.  I thought possibly the number of connections, coupled with using 12 gauge wire as a buss and 16 as a feeder might have finally reared its ugly head, but disconnecting the most recent run has yielded no positive results, where the prior 9 yielded not one negative result.  Up to now I thought I was clear and the weather was forecasting no foreseeable rain or storms all the way to port 14.  Sorry so long, but I am trying to give you as clear a picture of what I am facing so you can hopefully help me figure out what to fix.

Thanks for any help you can provide

John 

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I believe the brick trips on amps, not just volts. I wouldn’t take anything from your volt meter reading. Your amps due to a short circuit could be at 10 amps to trip the brick before you ever get an accurate voltage reading. Have you tried testing the brick with the meter, with the brick disconnected from the TIU? I have tested mine this way, and they read pretty close to 18 volts and don’t trip the breaker. If that works, then it could be the TIU. Are you aux powering the TIU? Have you checked fixed out 2?

It may not be your layout wiring.  A short power outage can harm electronics. Power strips help with this, but static can cause damage too. 

George

Last edited by George S

I have Lionel digital volt and amp meters on my two ZW transformers, and I always see the voltage drop as amps go up from adding locos to my track loops.  Your 11.3 volts can be close to accurate if your amps are spiking very high to the point of tripping the breaker (following Ohm's law, I believe, on the associated math). 

the other thing is voltage does not cause breaker tripping current does, so when you saw 11.3 volts what was the current 12 amps? you know you could have loose connections which will create heat and cause the voltage to drop and where  the voltage  is dropping a loose connect will be HOT! As voltage drops current goes up when there is a bad connection or short!

I"d be more inclined to suspect a short circuit than a high resistance joint.  What you have sounds like a short circuit somewhere drawing excessive current and tripping the breaker.  The PH180 has no capability to put out anything but full voltage or no voltage.  If you're using a fixed voltage channel on the TIU, it is a hard wire between the input and output, the only thing in the way is the relay and fuse.  Neither will drop the voltage by half.

One possibility is the TVS in the TIU, if that's shorted, you could have this issue.  How about using a different TIU channel and seeing if you still have the problem?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I"d be more inclined to suspect a short circuit than a high resistance joint.  What you have sounds like a short circuit somewhere drawing excessive current and tripping the breaker.  The PH180 has no capability to put out anything but full voltage or no voltage.  If you're using a fixed voltage channel on the TIU, it is a hard wire between the input and output, the only thing in the way is the relay and fuse.  Neither will drop the voltage by half.

One possibility is the TVS in the TIU, if that's shorted, you could have this issue.  How about using a different TIU channel and seeing if you still have the problem?

I was thinking the TVS diode too, since the fuze should fail open. Maybe the power outage damaged the TVS. When power is restored from a utility, there is the possibility of a surge. If the brick was on, it can pass over-voltage. My bricks read more than 18 volts in my house, because my utility power is higher than nominal.  Everyone seems to be suggesting using an elimination troubleshooting approach (I agree). Start with the power source by testing the brick independently or using another supply. Then, try another TIU channel.

George

Last edited by George S

First let me thank all of you who replied to this thread, your information and tips and helpful advice were quite valuable and well received.  I have been in town for the last few hours and this is the first I have had time to reply and work the problem...…….which rectified itself as mysteriously as manifested itself.  I now have a new word that goes along with my train layout.  "Hopefully".  As in when my wife said, "hopefully this won't happen again."  Hopefully it won't happen while the trains are running.  Hopefully whatever I did that wasn't any different from what I was doing last night has repaired the issue…..if there ever was one.

Was I dreaming?  Am I actually sitting here typing this?  My point is that I didn't do anything.  I tested voltage output from the brick to the TIU to the Terminal Board and tested each screw set.  All tests led to a 19.3 to 19.1 output.  I rehooked connection 8 to the terminal board, same screw set, turned on the brick, Hummmmmmmmmmmmmm………  Breaker never kicked.  I then began hooking one by one the remaining 9 connections, and all 9 Hummed with precision.  No breaker issue.  I allowed the layout to remain on for 15 minutes and when I went back to check, all green and red lights and of course, the hum of the brick.

I have no idea.  What was isn't any longer.  So, I guess i'll eat lunch and go run number 11.  Stay tuned I might be back tonight.  If not, thanks again for the help, always appreciated, and it's forum members like yourselves that helped me get this far.  Just having someone to talk to and bounce ideas or problems off of sets in motion a rich environment of ideas and tips and sometimes, the exact thing I needed to do to fix the problem.  In this case, be patient and hope the lion gets bored and moves on.

One thing I highly recommend to people is with sensitive electronics to put it on a UPS. They aren't that expensive these days, and they not only allow you time to shut down components in the case of a power failure, they also are one of the best voltage conditioners/surge suppression you can have (the ones I have feed continuous power from the battery, I recommend that type highly). For a while the power in my area was aweful, all kinds of brownouts and power cutting out then coming back in, was fluctuating all over the place, and I burned out a couple of cable modems and routers because of it. Since using a UPS, I haven't had  the problem and we have had some bouts of wild power swings in the past couple of months. If they do eventually run out of juice, they shut themselves down gracefully as well. 

I like the idea of the uninterrupted power supply.  Had one at a my job years ago when I worked for the Commonwealth.  Heavy.  Good heavens that thing was a car battery.  It worked like a charm.  One day the power kicked at work, and a rousing roll call of S words rang out through the office.  My computer was just fine.

On that note.  I don't leave my brick on when I am not in the room.  I power up, start an engine or 3, run them, hopefully not into each other, and then park them.  Once I have all my switches set back to straight, I turn off the remote, then the power to the track.  However, not a bad idea for if the power goes off while I am in the room running trains.  Thanks for the information.  Not sure if this new information I just shared has any bearing on thoughts as to why my system was shorting out.  I simply failed to mention the power was shut off when the outage occurred.

As for the tools on the track.  Never knew a chainsaw could cause so much confusion.

Hello again.  Don't worry, this isn't about the phantom short.  That mystery came and went.  This is a new one I discovered after I was finished and ran a locomotive to test the results.  Who am I kidding, I wanted to see if the dern thing would work.

It's my remote.  I installed brand new batteries before I began testing.  So that shouldn't have been the issue, and I found out later, according to a battery tester, it wasn't.  At least the tester said so.  My BAT indicator appeared.  I was testing my switch tracks to make sure none of them disconnected during all my track reinstallations.  Pulling them apart, reconnecting them, you know.  First think I noticed was that my soft key menu wouldn't respond to F5 which is the right arrow to move on to the next screen.  I pushed down hard and nothing.  So I tested a switch or two, had to practically shove the button through the floor to get the switch to fire.  Once it fired, straight to turn or turn to straight, the opposite direction fired off immediately.  This is usually a sign my batteries are getting weak.

I turned off the remote, turned it back on, BAT appeared.  As for the engine's testing, Horn, Bell, Speed, Go, Stop, Forward, Reverse, all worked within reasonable, normal parameters.  Usually, new batteries cause my switch tracks to bounce back and forth immediately.  I had to shove the button to get ALL to respond, but once it finally came up, one push of the straight or turn button caused immediate response.

Is my remote going bad?

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