To Block or not to Block with TMCC/Legacy

I use blocks for sidings.  I prefer not to leave engine powered in case of an oops.  That's just a preference.

How do you have 4 bricks in parallel?

Its recommended that you don't connect more than 2 bricks at a time and they should go through a TPC or legacy powermaster.

Whats the overall dimensions of your layout? 4 bricks is a ton of power.

Outside of that. Its ALWAYS a good idea to have blocks you can power down anywhere a train might be parked.

Even when they are "off" via the remote. All TMCC/ Legacy locomotives still have power going to the boards, your merely shutting off the sound and/or lights depending on the model.

A locomotive on a dead track can never be damaged by a short circuit. Not to mention, if a switch is incorrectly thrown it prevents a running train from hitting a parked one and causing damage/derailments.

I power off sidings too. I have two main power loops each with a brick. The sidings are switched on and off those two ZW-C outputs.

Some questions to help you decide:

1. How big is your layout actually?
2. Are you running multiple lighted passenger cars, lash-ups, many dual-motored locomotives?

Power districts are a good idea if you are running multiple current drawing trains.  Each power district is separated from its neighbor by insulated center rails.  They work by sharing the load of trains spanning the insulated gap, allowing more trains to run on the railroad.

I'm probably using overkill, but my Panhandle 2.0 is divided into 8 power districts.  The mainline consists of 4 power districts each supplied by a PH180.  Yards have their own PH180 or PH135.  I can kill power to each of them as needed.  As MartyE noted, that's a really good idea.

George

@RickO posted:

How do you have 4 bricks in parallel?

Its recommended that you don't connect more than 2 bricks at a time and they should go through a TPC or legacy powermaster.

Whats the overall dimensions of your layout? 4 bricks is a ton of power.

Outside of that. Its ALWAYS a good idea to have blocks you can power down anywhere a train might be parked.

Even when they are "off" via the remote. All TMCC/ Legacy locomotives still have power going to the boards, your merely shutting off the sound and/or lights depending on the model.

A locomotive on a dead track can never be damaged by a short circuit. Not to mention, if a switch is incorrectly thrown it prevents a running train from hitting a parked one and causing damage/derailments.

Powerhouse -> Lockon -> evergreen distribution board -> tracks ... 4 times.   Control is via Cab2

I believe is a recommended/supported configuration per Lionel's Videos ... if anyone knows otherwise please let me know.

As I understand it the PowerMaster is only needed for conventional operation using powerhouse and Cab1/Cab2.

As I understand the TPC300/TPC400 is ostensibly a PowerMaster with twice the amperage.

Since I have no requirement for conventional operation I believe the TPC or Powermaster offer no advantage.

Thanks.

@G3750 posted:

Some questions to help you decide:

1. How big is your layout actually?
2. Are you running multiple lighted passenger cars, lash-ups, many dual-motored locomotives?

Power districts are a good idea if you are running multiple current drawing trains.  Each power district is separated from its neighbor by insulated center rails.  They work by sharing the load of trains spanning the insulated gap, allowing more trains to run on the railroad.

I'm probably using overkill, but my Panhandle 2.0 is divided into 8 power districts.  The mainline consists of 4 power districts each supplied by a PH180.  Yards have their own PH180 or PH135.  I can kill power to each of them as needed.  As MartyE noted, that's a really good idea.

George

I attached a diagram with the original post.    about 12' x 10', 150' of track, 20 cc switches, about ten tmcc/legacy locomotives.   I'd have to do research on the dual motor question, about a dozen lighted coaches.   I'm thinking of isolating the yards in the diagram. Is center rail isolation sufficient?   Thanks.

FWIW, I personally think having four transformers in parallel supplying everything is a REALLY BAD IDEA!   Having 40 amps of power on the track is just inviting welded wheels and pickups for any derailment.  I've also noticed that parallel PH180's seem to confuse the breaker circuit and you may not get the quick action you should expect from the PH180.

I have four power districts, each with a PH180 supplying one channel of the MTH TIU and then on to the tracks.

• Mainline
• Service Loop & turntable
• Secondary loops (2)
• Yards.

Obviously, I control any yard tracks individually, so that's easy.  I certainly don't want half a dozen locomotives suddenly springing to life.  What happens if you're missing the TMCC signal for any reason.  Guess what, full speed ahead when they see power!

Each turntable whisker track is individually controlled as well.  Do you really want sixteen locomotives all powered up facing each other in a big circle?

Leaving power on all the locomotives all the time will almost surely result in additional risk of an electronic failure, nature of the beast.

@LIRR-Jim posted:

I attached a diagram with the original post.    about 12' x 10', 150' of track, 20 cc switches, about ten tmcc/legacy locomotives.   I'd have to do research on the dual motor question, about a dozen lighted coaches.   I'm thinking of isolating the yards in the diagram. Is center rail isolation sufficient?   Thanks.

Yes, isolating the center rail is the way to do the blocks.  For TMCC/Legacy, the entire layout outside rails must be connected or you lose the TMCC/Legacy signal.

@LIRR-Jim posted:

I attached a diagram with the original post.    about 12' x 10', 150' of track, 20 cc switches, about ten tmcc/legacy locomotives.   I'd have to do research on the dual motor question, about a dozen lighted coaches.   I'm thinking of isolating the yards in the diagram. Is center rail isolation sufficient?   Thanks.

IMO 4 bricks is overkill. How many locomotives will you actually have pulling trains at the same time?

I regularly run 3 trains, two of which 6 plus passenger coaches behind scale steam with smoke units on without issue on my 10'x16' layout with just 1 brick with 14 ga feeders every 10' of track length.

If your concerned about power, isolate the layout in half, and have 1 brick powering each half. Then add yard blocks on toggles to park locomotives.

Then you could sell off one brick and use the other for accessories

LIRR-Jim, this info from testing I did on my layout might help you.

Prior to changing over from postwar transformers to PH180 bricks, I did a test on how much one brick could power.  I have a large layout with some fairly substantial grades.  I tested the following:

1) MTH 4-motor diesel set (converted to TMCC, smoke off) with 11 cars on a 3.5% grade

2) another train identical to #1

3) Atlas 4-motor diesel set (smoke off) with 11 cars on a 2.5% grade.

4) Weaver 2-motor diesel (no smoke) with 10 cars on a 1.8% grade.

The PH180 could handle all 4 of these trains (14 motors) simultaneously without popping the breaker.  If I added a steam locomotive (1 motor, smoke off) on the 1.8% grade, the PH180 breaker reliably popped.

The biggest current hogs are smoke units and passenger cars with incandescent light bulbs.  Converting passenger cars to LEDs reduces their current usage to near zero.

I have power districts (each with its own PH180) on my layout, divided by areas.  Each town is a power district.  Within those districts, I have toggle switches that can be used to turn power off to any track where a locomotive might be stored.  The only locomotives that have power are the ones I'm currently running.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, isolating the center rail is the way to do the blocks.  For TMCC/Legacy, the entire layout outside rails must be connected or you lose the TMCC/Legacy signal.

Yeah I understand the tmcc/legacy signal was using the outer rails for an antenna ... which s why I asked.  I can easily use a 1 3/8 with the jumper pulled to get the desired effect.  Today's project

@RickO posted:

IMO 4 bricks is overkill. How many locomotives will you actually have pulling trains at the same time?

I regularly run 3 trains, two of which 6 plus passenger coaches behind scale steam with smoke units on without issue on my 10'x16' layout with just 1 brick with 14 ga feeders every 10' of track length.

If your concerned about power, isolate the layout in half, and have 1 brick powering each half. Then add yard blocks on toggles to park locomotives.

Then you could sell off one brick and use the other for accessories

I tend to agree, I was running the whole smash with 2x135 ... I had gotten the 2 180s when they became available after a long drought as spares really.  I'm going to do some block isolation and create 2 or 3 power districts and see how it goes ...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, isolating the center rail is the way to do the blocks.  For TMCC/Legacy, the entire layout outside rails must be connected or you lose the TMCC/Legacy signal.

John, in conventional mode, when you insulate just the center rail, do you also ground the outside rail...if so, in my case would I run a ground wire from the outside rail on the track back to the "Atlas 205" selector and then to the MTH terminal block or would I run the ground wire from the track directly back to the MTH terminal block?  I've run the red power wire from the Atlas 205 to the center rail on the other side of the insulated center rail, and another red power wire from Atlas 205 to the positive post on the MTH terminal block.  Is this the preferred method?

Any suggestion appreciated...thanks

In ever 3-rail layout I've ever worked on, the outside rails are common all the way around.  I like to run the ground and hot leads to the power feed together, and provide switching for the hot lead as required.