To buy or not to buy Lionel Product 6-14536? Bought!

If you're getting a nice ABBA set with 2 powered units for that price, it's an extremely good deal.  TMCC diesel powered units tend to go for $200-225 these days, except for ones with super detailing which command more $$$.  You won't find a better price/performer or more bang for your buck than with TMCC offerings -- especially if you're running them with a Legacy command system.  Noticeably smoother operation under Legacy. 

In terms of F3's w/TMCC, I'd stick with the detailed, scale models Lionel produced in the early 2000's (Santa Fe, NYC, Alaska RR, WP) or later... and pass on any of the earlier ones made from older tooling.   From the date you're referring to, this sounds like some of the first scale units Lionel produced as part of their "U.S. Savings Bond Program", where buyers got a $50 US Savings Bond from Lionel if they sent in the proof-of-purchase paperwork.

Generally speaking, folks are getting completely caught up in Lionel's hype with all the Legacy re-issues at over-the-top pricing.  If you absolutely want the latest features Legacy brings to the table, like IR sensors and whistle-steam for steam locomotives, then Lionel is really making enthusiasts pay through the nose.    If you're just looking for good-runners, TMCC locomotives under Legacy control offer unbeatable and great price/performance.

David

RRADDICT2,

   I am assuming they are a AA set. $500 is way too high. For TMCC engines my limit is $300. For SF War Bonnet you could assume a premium and go to $400 but $500 is a no go.

JohnB

Legacy is not as important to me as reliability. The locomotives looked detailed like my CB&Q's. I figured they were asking for a premium because of the war bonnet paint. The problem is that these are about impossible to find especially out here in So Cal. I will keep a look out for a cheaper set. I picked up my NY lightening stripes for 250.00 and they are great.

Oh my!

These have TMCC/Railsounds they are just not Legacy.  I will not buy anymore conventional engines.

Rockstar, I think that these are tmcc equipped locos that he's talking about.

Personally, if you're coming from PS-2 speed control, I'd consider holding out for Legacy equipped units. That is if speed control is really important. If not, then have at it.

Not to complicate things, but you could look into the Lionchief Plus AA  SF WarBonnet FTs, which you can find for under $500.00 and are pretty feature packed including speed control. There is also a matching "B-unit".

I have the ABA set and couldn't be happier and I also run TMCC and Legacy on my layout.

I had the FT units and I just like the F3's better. I don't mind shelling out 500.00 for them and speed control is not important to me as I have a small flat layout. Like I said I have a set of MYC F3's that are great but I wasn't sure of quality or price point on a brand new set. WB F3's are hard to find with all the bells and whistles to include smoke. I will make a couple hundred bucks from the MTH ABA set so it will be worth it.

RRaddict2 posted:

I am new to the Legacy and TMCC operation of trains.  I do love it though I can tell you that.  I am coming over from DCS and don't know much about dependability of certain TMCC locomotives.  I am looking to buy a set of SF war bonnet F-3's on Ebay made in 2003.  They are non-Legacy but have all the other bells and whistles to include smoke. They are new and the seller has 100% FB.  I am looking to replace my PS 2 war bonnets and I cannot find these in Legacy without having to pay a small fortune.  I would like to know if they are worth the asking price of 500.00 or not. Any advice would be appreciated as 500 smackaroos is not a small amount of money.

I have the Lionel F3 & F7 Santa Fe Warbonnets with railsounds 5.0. They are good engines and accurately detailed for the money. Five hundred isn't bad if they are N.I.B. A-B-A. Offer less, maybe four and a quarter. You can always come up.

Ok, so one guy has it figured as an ABBA set - Great bargain!

Next guy thinks it's an AA set -  not so much...

Last guy has it as an ABA - just about right.

Some like their porridge hot, some not.  So the question is....

Are these that  first(?) run of O Scale Warbonnets (6-14588) with high front windows, Engine #19, that were sold as A-B-A sets for c. $899? If so, those did have Odyssey speed control (with on/off switch). For $500 new, I’d be interested (but I already have a set). FWIW, a separate powered B unit was offered as well.   

The scale F-3 and F-7s have the more advanced Odyssey cruise control; these are the ones with Odyssey on/off switches. They operate fine. As mentioned above, all the TMCC units operate noticeably better using the Legacy system for the controls.

In TMCC versions, Lionel did three issues of the F-3 and one of the F-7. The second and third scale warbonnet versions, which have cab nos. 18 and 19, are identical, and have a few improvements over the first issue, which has cab no. 16, but those issues were relatively minor and correctable.

Lionel has not yet produced Legacy-equipped scale F-3 or F-7 warbonnet engines. I suspect they will be offered pretty soon.

Anything from fleabay is a roll of the dice.   Weekly, I see guys get screwed and when they contact the owner they get  "it ran good when I sent it"  I would suggest to anyone looking used to use the OGR forum.  

I get many calls from people who buy junk from fleabay and they all get the same answer from me.   The words bargain and screwed aside from each having seven letters do have a lot in common when it comes to fleabay.   I know some great deals do exist and I just get to hear from the others.

I have purchased many items on the OGR Forum with great luck.   From time to time I run an add looking for inoperative trains.  I fix them and stand behind them.  

No mattery where you buy guys, be careful and happy hunting.

RRADDICT2,

      As usual MartyF is giving you some real good advise, in fact let me add this to it, I never purchase Engines off of e-bay.  I do however purchase engines from the members of OGR, in fact I just picked up another Weaver Masonic Train NIB, from a OGR member who never really posts much.   If you are going to purchased used equipment, especially Engines, do it from the members here on the OGR,  or purchase new from a reputable dealer, where you can get the warranty.  I have yet to be disappointed, purchasing in this manner.  I would much rather loose out on a good deal once in a while, than to get burnt even once on e-bay.

PCRR/Dave

My 414, 0-8-0 Double Header Masonic Train, running on the Christmas layout, thanks to one of our OGR forum members.

New?  From 2003?  Anything 13 years old is not new... Even if it is just sitting on the shelf.  Buyer beware.

Have Fun!

Ron

I have bought items for eBay and this forum for quite some time now (eBay member since 1999).  Either way, what is important is that you purchase from a reputable seller.

Just bought a new Reading SD70Ace this evening on eBay.  This is an engine that I have been looking for some time now.

Jim

Be careful buying an older 2003 TMCC engine "caveat emptor" buyer beware! I have bought freight cars etc on eBay no tmcc locomotives unless I was dead on sure of the seller, there are some large reputable hobby retailers on the Bay.

I have no experience buying locomotives on the Bay.  I buy only freight cars and they have all been good except for an operating milk car I bought a few years ago. 

I'm not to concerned about the increase in the radius of curves needed by some trains in O gauge.  There still seems to be enough stuff available that runs on 027 and 031 track.  If it doesn't, I don't buy it.  I like New England railroads and their locomotives weren't very large.  I'm happy.

All right, you guys have me worried now.  I have a two sets of Santa Fe F3's at home.  I've never had them out of the box.  I need to go home, find them and see if I bought the right ones. 

I have bought and sold several engines on Ebay with no problems. Ebay has protections in place for both seller and buyer. The buy and sell here is more of a risk than Ebay.

you need to be careful buying anywhere.It is asy to become a fourum "member", but difficult to become a reputable Ebay seller .

I have bout a lot on fleabay and the forum and have only had two bad incidents on the bay.  I would prefer to buy from the forum but I cant buy if no one is selling.  I check the forum daily hoping some will pop up. There was a set on the forum a few months ago but I didn't have the money to buy at that time. One other question are these even available in Legacy? 

I prefer buying on the forum but have been rear ended there as well. And in the case of a forum purchase you have no real recourse. I have made my very best and very worst buys on eBay. I recently got a Premier BNSF GP9 that the guy claimed was C8 condition for about $200. It ran ok but on close inspection the shell was badly cracked and poorly repaired. There were multiple cracks around the screw holes and glue all over the place. And of course the guy claimed no knowledge of it. As it turned out I was able to gut it and successfully install the boards on a failed 5V PS2 and transfer the trucks to another engine that needed them. The rest of it has been reduced to lights, electro-couplers and other piece parts for future repairs. So it's all good I guess.

Like Marty says, you're rolling the dice with an eBay purchase so be prepared.

I purchase a set of K-line's brand new Santa Fe aa in the box for $299 from a dealer. I found the k-line number and did an internet search and found them. Be carefull on ebay. 

Scott T Johnson posted:

I prefer buying on the forum but have been rear ended there as well. And in the case of a forum purchase you have no real recourse........

I'm OK with the Forum, but have also been stung there (more than once!). Ebay has a quite good return policy that has pretty well taken care of any issue I've had there.

If anyone is interested, I have an Santa Fe TMCC ABBA #19 (powered A & powered B) that I want to sell.  My email is in my profile.

You may be able to save some money if you have a Legacy  command set and use a Legacy PowerMaster to enable conventional operation.  Aside from the scale size and the crawl achievable with Odyssey-equipped locomotives, I have found my 11711 F3 ABA Warbonnets with RailSounds from 1991 capable of pretty much anything I want using the Legacy controller that later TMCC or Legacy issues can deliver.  You easily can get a set for $400 and may be able to do much better if you look hard enough.

What, me worry?  

I am rolling the dice on the set from Ebay, I have checked around and I haven't found anywhere else to get these at the sellers asking price and most people want to sell a B unit with it that I do not need as my layout is not that big.  I will repost when the set arrives and let everyone know if I got gaffled or not.

These are nice if they run, but its a roll of the dice. Lionel had a bad run of can motors for these right out of the factory. Unfortunately, you cannot buy the motor with the odyssey board with the correct worm diameter (0.226 dia). You have to build your own from the repair kits. I have 2 powered shelf queens because of this, still trying to find parts.

If you get ones that run nice, they are keepers, otherwise walk away....

Scott T Johnson posted:

... you're rolling the dice with an eBay purchase so be prepared.

Bottom line... We're all rolling the dice with any  purchase that doesn't have warranty protection or purchase protection.  That's why people most often buy from folks they like.  Bargain prices help mitigate issues, but ya gotta feel comfortable with the seller in the first place.  And to some degree, the sellers has also gotta feel comfortable with the buyer too.  Otherwise it's best to move on.  

Good luck with your purchase.

David

I was just watching a 'I Love Toy Trains' show on TV and they are featuring a TMCC Sante Fe Warbonnet AB set where the B unit has a 'breakdown' feature.  I would steer clear of that puppy.  That's gotta be bad juju.

I only purchased the two AA units and it wasn't on Ebay but at an online retailer for 285.00 that I have been doing business with for about 3 years. It was just luck that checked with them before buying on Ebay and they had them available.  I trust this retailer and I'm not worried about getting junk from them as they backup everything they sell. The AB set that you are referring to is not quite the same as their AA sets as these have Odyssey cruise and smoke as the AB units do not.  As soon as I get them next week I will post the quality control results.

RRaddict2 posted:

I only purchased the two AA units and it wasn't on Ebay but at an online retailer for 285.00 that I have been doing business with for about 3 years. It was just luck that checked with them before buying on Ebay and they had them available.  ...

Sounds like the odds are good for a happy ending.  Next time you post about something like this, you might want to post the item number so everyone knows exactly what you're inquiring about.   Generic descriptions lead to all kinds of assumptions.

After all of this, we still don't know what you purchased!!!  

Enjoy!

David

I guess that would help out but here is Lionel's link to the product http://www.lionel.com/products...a-pwr-dmy16-6-14536/

I had to find it through Google as when I searched Lionel's site it wouldn't show up.

Nice find.  'Breezinup' mentioned above that Lionel did 4 similar Santa Fe F units - 3 F3's and an F7. The F7s are 'high-water' units but are any of the F3's so afflicted?

I've seen photos of some that appeared to sit higher than others. We have train #18 with a F3 B unit cab on the breakdown F7 chassis and there is a difference in chassis height above the trucks. 

RRaddict2 posted:

I guess that would help out but here is Lionel's link to the product http://www.lionel.com/products...a-pwr-dmy16-6-14536/

...

That's the set I was referring to in my original response when you posted this thread.  These were Lionel's first nicely detailed scale F3 offerings back in the day, and I have the entire ABBA configuration that was produced a couple of years after Lionel's big Turn-of-The-Century Santa Fe passenger set that used the older tooling for the F3 locomotives.  I liked the appearance so much, I even purchased an extra dummy B-unit which makes a cool ABBBA front end to a long Sante Fe passenger train.    These are smooth runners with Legacy/Cab2 even though the locomotive hardware is TMCC.  If $285 is the going price for the AA pair (one powered / one dummy), you pretty much got the dummy unit for free -- or maybe $50 if they've been used.  Honestly, I'd rather display mine before I sell them at a give-away price.  There comes a point where these transactions are no longer win-win.  But every seller has their reasons for unloading stuff these days.

Hope it all works out for you.

David

David, thanks you made me feel a little more at ease with this purchase and I will definitely let everyone know how it all works out next week.  When I saw the date as 2002 instead of 2003 I had a feeling these were the ones you were referring to. Thanks for all the input everyone has given me.

The finest F3 profile ever made . One thing the cab lites , they get way too hot and will melt the shell and might have been the case with numberboards as well . simple fixes wire these mentioned bulbs in series .

RRaddict2 posted:

.......you made me feel a little more at ease with this purchase and I will definitely let everyone know how it all works out next week.....

The Forum provides extensive counselling at no charge for the angst some people feel about toy train purchases, no matter how small. 

For $285, I think you did pretty well.  That beats $500 by $215.  Pretty cool.  Especially since you got it from a trusted shop.  Nicely played.  They look pretty sweet.  Long may they run.