Toggle Switches for Yard

Another option is to use a 12 volt ac relay and operate it with your controller. I use Lionel Legacy and an SC2 control switch. I am sure MTH has similar options. This eleminates the need for a phyiscal switch which is important on my small layout.

Good luck however your go.

@Yank2304 posted:

... I want to wire toggle switches and be able to power the tracks I want on command.

When you say "and...on command," do you mean you also would like the ability to power the tracks under DCS command-control such as using an AIU?

I honestly do want to use the AIU for powering my yard tracks.

I want to have 7 toggle switches via a control board so I can select the track I want to power.  I would first pick the track and then start up the transformer so the track would get the initial DCS signal via a TIU.

Should I go 10 amp max or 15 amps?

It seems like you want seven simple ON/OFF toggle switches... one for each yard siding ...that you can turn ON/OFF by hand.  That is what I use... mine are lighted blue when ON.

Whoops!  Looks like you answered while I was typing...

Mine are 20amps... they are not breakers ...they do not control voltage/amperage.  They just complete the circuit... i.e., ON/OFF.  Voltage/Amperage/Breakers/TVS are handled elsewhere.

Not trying to give you a hard time, but if you have a control board with 7 "manual" toggle switches to select which yard track(s) is ON, where exactly does the AIU come into play?

I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "starting up the transformer."  Do you mean turning ON a transformer that feeds the input to a TIU-FIXED channel?  And the corresponding TIU FIXED output then generates the initial DCS signal (a.k.a. watchdog) to keep any DCS engine on the selected yard track silent on powerup?  Again, not sure where the AIU fits into the picture.

Also, note that the relays in the AIU are not rated for anything near 10 or 15 Amps!  I think they are something in the 3-5 Amp range.  Also, it's hard to imagine how a yard track with a single engine going at slow yard speeds could draw anywhere close to 10 Amps...not that over-sizing a switch is a bad thing.

Also, just want to confirm you do NOT want to use 7 AIU ACC(essory) ports to select (via the DCS remote) which of the 7 yard tracks is active?  You want the selection done "manually" with the control board toggle switches.

The best switch for the application that I think your trying to do is the ones made by Gardner Bedner.

https://www.gardnerbender.com/en/products/Switches

I have used them for many years to control my sidings and also to isolate my TMCC and TIU when I want to run a command locomotive in conventional.

I installed five sidings for trains "awaiting a call for service" on the main line (THOMAS, PERCY, JAMES, DIESEL, and a DINO TRAIN -- plus a stub siding for parked freight cars in position at the Lionel SAWMILL, OIL DRUM LOADER, CULVERT UNLOADER and CULVERT LOADER action accessories.

Track power can be provided (or not) to each siding with a designated toggle switch mounted in a Radio Shack plastic project box. Nothing fancy, but it works. I placed a lighted Lionel track bumper at the end of each siding. Its light shows whether the siding is ON or OFF.  A photo of the slide-out drawer with various controls is attached for reference.

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

@stan2004 posted:

Not trying to give you a hard time, but if you have a control board with 7 "manual" toggle switches to select which yard track(s) is ON, where exactly does the AIU come into play?

I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "starting up the transformer."  Do you mean turning ON a transformer that feeds the input to a TIU-FIXED channel?  And the corresponding TIU FIXED output then generates the initial DCS signal (a.k.a. watchdog) to keep any DCS engine on the selected yard track silent on powerup?  Again, not sure where the AIU fits into the picture.

Also, note that the relays in the AIU are not rated for anything near 10 or 15 Amps!  I think they are something in the 3-5 Amp range.  Also, it's hard to imagine how a yard track with a single engine going at slow yard speeds could draw anywhere close to 10 Amps...not that over-sizing a switch is a bad thing.

Also, just want to confirm you do NOT want to use 7 AIU ACC(essory) ports to select (via the DCS remote) which of the 7 yard tracks is active?  You want the selection done "manually" with the control board toggle switches.

THNK YOU everyone for your help - Stan, it is ok, you are not giving me a hard time - this is why I am here, to get honest feedback from modelers who have done this before and I appreciate all the time you are taking to post.

I do not think I was clear in my post - I def am NOT using my AIU to help me with my yard.  

We have a large NYC subway car layout and every car has a bunch of lights - one yard track will have as much as 16 subway cars with lights and this draws about 6-7 amps - and hence my issue about wanting to individualize power to each track.  

And yes to confirm - I want the selection done manually.  I figure I will wire a “master” toggle that goes between the transformer and the DCS input so that when the right track is selected via the control board - I will then flip the master toggle and the selected track will get the power and the watchdog signal.

I think the Gardner Bender 20 amp on/off switch looks like it will do what I need!

Now I need to figure out the proper wire gauge to buy! For my powered yard tracks, switches and accessories!

I recommend 14-gauge wire to reduce voltage loss, even for sidings.  While a loco on a siding won't draw 10 amps, when (not if) there is a derailment, the switch will be carrying and maybe breaking a current that could exceed 10 amps.  So I recommend 1- amp switches. (I have 70+/- toggle switches controlling blocks on my layout---mainlines are sectioned into blocks.)

If yo want to be able to turn blocks on and off by both toggles switches and an AIU, then you will have to use relays, with the output of both AIU NO terminal and toggle switch connected to same terminal on relay coil.

The toggle switch "solution" for 7 yard-track blocks is:

Simple.  Easy to understand. Life is good. 

But OGR being a discussion forum for the exchange of ideas, there are circumstances where relays can play a role.  If the Yard is a long distance from the control board and/or the TIU, it's interesting to ponder the cost of thick AWG 14/16 wire relative to a relay alternative.

Maybe you already have a huge spool of power cable.  Great.  But for discussion purposes, let's say you're paying 10 cents to 25 cents per foot for power cable.  Let's say the Yard is 20 feet from the Control Board.  So for 7 yard sections that's 140 feet of cable or $14-$35 for just the power cable!  The "beefy" GB toggle switches appear to be around $4 so a similar expenditure for the 7 switches.

For around $1-2 per relay, you can get a relay module with 8 10A/250VAC relays.  If this relay module is placed near the Yard, then an economical multi-conductor control cable (e.g., AWG 24/26 phone wire) can run the long distance from the Control Board to the Yard.  And instead of using "beefy" toggle switches that handle 10+ Amps, you can use more economical and compact toggle switches that only need to carry, say, 0.1 Amps of current.  So you save cost on the wiring AND the toggle switches. Yes, you do need a source of control voltage (typically 12V DC) but a 12V DC wall-wart for a few bucks takes care of that.  This method would be how an AIU (that was not designed to switch 10+ Amp load) could provide DCS command-control of Yard track power if such was desired.

Then, taking the concept a bit further:

For just a couple extra bucks, you can get an 8 relay module that can be WIRELESSLY controlled via a handheld remote fob.  The wireless link can be via Infrared (IR) or RF.  So now you do not need any control/selection wiring from the Control Board to the Yard because it is done wirelessly!  You just need to run one (1) wire from the TIU channel that powers the Yard.  The relay module shown can actually be controlled by wire or wireless.

Again, the star of the show are the attractively priced multi-channel relay modules. 

And, while not necessarily applicable to this Yard application, there are situations where running DCS power wires "willy-nilly" from distant track sections to-and-from a Control Board's toggle switches can present issues with the DCS command signal integrity.

@stan2004 posted:

..OGR being a discussion forum for the exchange of ideas, there are circumstances where relays can play a role.

Stan, Great info!  Thanks for posting this.

That is an interesting approach to wiring a large layout, Stan.  Unfortunately, when I built my layout almost 30 years ago, relays were quire expensive.  Would have eliminated a lot of 14-gauge ratsnest under the layout, but I would have used 12-gauge for the power feeds.

I have used such a system, with 22- or 24-gauge wire to control a Lionel crane (including back and forth) and it works flawlessly.  I used AC-DC buck converter, in the control box to provide relay power.

Relay switching also works well if your control point will be distant from the yard, even if the yard is next to the power source.  It's a lot easier to run a stretch of CAT5 Ethernet cable to the remote switching point than #14 wire for each yard track.  I'm using this technique for yard tracks.

I got my ON-OFF toggles at Amazon.  Rated for 20A @ 125V or 15A @ 250V.

Bat handle toggle switches tend to look nicer on a control panel. No big deal.

I have a yard in my future, maybe next winter.  I'm sold on the 8 channel relay approach.  I just ordered them.

I keep it simple and used Radio Shack mini slide switches.  The control panel has the track diagram made with 1/8 inch auto pin striping.  When the track section is not powered the switch black slide blocks the pin striping.  When the track section is powered, the open position of the mini slide switch shows white to complete the white pin striping.  I painted that section of the mini slide switch white.  See below.

Mini slide switches will work with seven track yard sections and will show if the section is powered or not powered.  They will cost less than a toggle switches also.

It is best to use a double pole double throw mini switch for track sections as most are rated for .5 amps.  I use both sets of contacts to increase the amp rate to 1 amp.  I also switch with the power off as most wear on the contacts occur when voltage is applied and a 1 amp switch can handle much more amperage when just conducting power verses when switching with power on.
I have never had to replace any of my 24 mini slide switches for track sections and 15 mini slide switches for accessories and lights in over 40 years.

Charlie

My eight-track yard is controlled by a simple 8-pole rotary position switch--one position assigned for each track. The switch is connected to a bank of 8 relays under the table--one relay for each track. Each relay does two functions: a) turns on the AC track power for that track and b) controls a combination of 7 Ross switches with Tortoise motors [via a diode logic matrix] to direct a train coming into/exiting the yard to/from one of the eight tracks.

@stan2004 posted:

The toggle switch "solution" for 7 yard-track blocks is:

Simple.  Easy to understand. Life is good. 

But OGR being a discussion forum for the exchange of ideas, there are circumstances where relays can play a role.  If the Yard is a long distance from the control board and/or the TIU, it's interesting to ponder the cost of thick AWG 14/16 wire relative to a relay alternative.

Maybe you already have a huge spool of power cable.  Great.  But for discussion purposes, let's say you're paying 10 cents to 25 cents per foot for power cable.  Let's say the Yard is 20 feet from the Control Board.  So for 7 yard sections that's 140 feet of cable or $14-$35 for just the power cable!  The "beefy" GB toggle switches appear to be around $4 so a similar expenditure for the 7 switches.

For around $1-2 per relay, you can get a relay module with 8 10A/250VAC relays.  If this relay module is placed near the Yard, then an economical multi-conductor control cable (e.g., AWG 24/26 phone wire) can run the long distance from the Control Board to the Yard.  And instead of using "beefy" toggle switches that handle 10+ Amps, you can use more economical and compact toggle switches that only need to carry, say, 0.1 Amps of current.  So you save cost on the wiring AND the toggle switches. Yes, you do need a source of control voltage (typically 12V DC) but a 12V DC wall-wart for a few bucks takes care of that.  This method would be how an AIU (that was not designed to switch 10+ Amp load) could provide DCS command-control of Yard track power if such was desired.

Then, taking the concept a bit further:

For just a couple extra bucks, you can get an 8 relay module that can be WIRELESSLY controlled via a handheld remote fob.  The wireless link can be via Infrared (IR) or RF.  So now you do not need any control/selection wiring from the Control Board to the Yard because it is done wirelessly!  You just need to run one (1) wire from the TIU channel that powers the Yard.  The relay module shown can actually be controlled by wire or wireless.

Again, the star of the show are the attractively priced multi-channel relay modules.

And, while not necessarily applicable to this Yard application, there are situations where running DCS power wires "willy-nilly" from distant track sections to-and-from a Control Board's toggle switches can present issues with the DCS command signal integrity.

Wow this is fantastic - you just gave me a lot to think about now with the relays!!

Awesome diagrams!!

@Yank2304 posted:

I think the Gardner Bender 20 amp on/off switch looks like it will do what I need!

Now I need to figure out the proper wire gauge to buy! For my powered yard tracks, switches and accessories!

an aside - the terminals for your toggle switches are bolt on kind - don't rely on spade connects instead use ring connects. They are a pain to get on but once once on they won't fall off if the bolts loosen up which they often tend to do. If you can buy the toggle switch with a male connector this would be better. Then you can use a female crimp connect for it.

As for wire there is all kinds of opinions - common advice is 16 AWG for power and 18AWG for drops from track. If you have really long wire runs for power than maybe 14 AWG. Definitley use stranded not solid wire.

Indirectly mentioned earlier, but if the Control Board switches themselves do NOT have to carry the 10 Amps (or whatever) AC track voltage, you vastly increase your choice of switches.

Some guys use a rotary switch to turn on roundhouse spurs or yard track sections.  They exist but rotary switches that can handle 10 Amps can be quite expensive and difficult to find with a suitable number of positions to match your application.  OTOH, rotary switches that only need to carry a fraction of an Amp are plentiful ... a 12-position rotary as shown above goes for maybe $2-3.  Yes, you can only turn on 1 block at a time but maybe that's good enough.  And you only have to drill 1 hole in the Control Board panel which can save a lot of space!

Separately, some guys like the idea of illuminated toggle/rocker switches on their Control Board.  The automotive after-market offers many "handsome" switches that are easy to wire-up if you use 12V DC as the control voltage to the distant relays.  The built-in LEDs (often in your choice of color) directly operate on 12V DC so no fussing with adding resistors or messing with "LED calculator" programs to choose resistor values.  The 3-terminal illuminated switches are simple to hook up too!  1 terminal is the 12V DC from a wall-wart, 1 terminal is the switched control voltage out to the distant relay module, 1 terminal goes to the 12V DC ground from the wall-wart.  It is no coincidence that I recommend using 12V DC relay modules!

I recommend against using 18-gauge anywhere for track power in O gauge, based upon what I have observed and learned in 80 years experience.  My large layout uses only 14.  The 8x4 layout I built for two my grandchildren uses 16.

@stan2004 posted:

Not trying to give you a hard time, but if you have a control board with 7 "manual" toggle switches to select which yard track(s) is ON, where exactly does the AIU come into play?

I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "starting up the transformer."  Do you mean turning ON a transformer that feeds the input to a TIU-FIXED channel?  And the corresponding TIU FIXED output then generates the initial DCS signal (a.k.a. watchdog) to keep any DCS engine on the selected yard track silent on powerup?  Again, not sure where the AIU fits into the picture.

Also, note that the relays in the AIU are not rated for anything near 10 or 15 Amps!  I think they are something in the 3-5 Amp range.  Also, it's hard to imagine how a yard track with a single engine going at slow yard speeds could draw anywhere close to 10 Amps...not that over-sizing a switch is a bad thing.

Also, just want to confirm you do NOT want to use 7 AIU ACC(essory) ports to select (via the DCS remote) which of the 7 yard tracks is active?  You want the selection done "manually" with the control board toggle switches.

Actually the later version AIU has relays rated for 10 amps, per below. I bought two in 2016 and I think they are an upgrade from the earlier version which had 5 amp relays. I don't know exactly when the change was made. And there is no rev number or any other way that you can tell the difference without disassembly, AFAIK. This was discussed in another topic a month or two ago. For my money 10 amps handling would be plenty for switching sidings with any number of lit passenger cars, or anything else for that matter.

You could locate the AIU at a convenient spot central to the yard sidings so as to keep your power runs short. The AIU is in turn controlled via the DCS by means of a low power Ethernet type cable connected to your TIU. Pretty straightforward. Distribution of power at the AIU could be done using an MTH 12 port terminal block #50-1014. Each AIU can switch up to 10 power blocks, as well as up to 10 switch tracks, which might also be convenient for switching the yard switches from a central point, all using DCS.

Rod

@stan2004 posted:

Indirectly mentioned earlier, but if the Control Board switches themselves do NOT have to carry the 10 Amps (or whatever) AC track voltage, you vastly increase your choice of switches.

I use the one pictured in the middle 12vdc 20 amps (attached a diode) with a blue led for power distribution... very happy with them.    I've been looking at Toggles for my tortoise machines for days and cannot find one to my liking... which is a bummer.

You guys build great looking and functional control panels. For pure simplicity I use light switch toggles in a plastic gang box screwed to the table front.  Why?  They are inexpensive, easy to work on since the wiring is up front, it requires no skills other than being able to turn a screw driver and because I am frugal ie. cheap.

@Rod Stewart posted:

...

And there is no rev number or any other way that you can tell the difference without disassembly, AFAIK.

This is insanity.  I was looking at the MTH website AIU page and found absolutely no reference at all to Amp carrying (i.e., current) specifications...or that the latest revision is "New and Improved."

For all anyone knows, MTH just happened to get a better price on 10 Amp relays in this particular batch build...and the next build (if there ever is one) might use a lower Amp relay!

I don't want to get into a techno-babble discussion about contact deratings and such, but it always struck me that the original AIU screw terminal blocks might be up against the limit so to speak if talking 10+ Amps. They crammed an awful lot of terminals in the space provided to get 10 switch + 10 accessory outputs each with 3 terminals.

The low cost relay modules (with 10 Amp relays) seem to have settled on one size of screw terminal block.  I experimented to find the largest drill bit I could comfortably insert into the AIU screw terminals vs. the relay modules without undue force/effort.  Again, I don't want to digress into AWG current-carrying limits of #14 vs. #16 vs. whatever... or whether you should cram stranded vs. solid into an AIU screw terminal.  It's just an observation that the literature (MTH) always talks about powering Accessories with the AIU; might be why the A in AIU stands for Accessory.

Someone tell me I'm mistaken but I can't recall any "official" reference to powering 10 Amp track blocks (or even wimpy 3 or 5 Amp track blocks) with the AIU Accessory Ports! 

Since I know for sure that some AIU's do not have 10A relays, I would generally not recommend them for switching track power.  The fact that MTH conveniently omits any mention of current carrying capacity of the AIU channels is another red flag.

Great topic.  I just printed it as a pdf and filed it in my folder full of technical tips.  Thanks!

@stan2004 posted:

For just a couple extra bucks, you can get an 8 relay module that can be WIRELESSLY controlled via a handheld remote fob.

I like this, and looking at it just for my engine yard.  However, I need more than 8 channels.  Did a quick check on eBay and Amazon and did not see any larger ones.  Anyone know of 16+ channel variants of this?

Bear in mind that the more relays on a single component, the greer the chance of having to replace an entire component due to a failure.

@RJR posted:

Bear in mind that the more relays on a single component, the greer the chance of having to replace an entire component due to a failure.

Well, I found this.  If a component failed it would be a hassle.

If there's a failure, easiest to replace whole unit.  What advantage to one 16 vs 2-8s or 4-4s?

So if using a remote controlled relay of the same kind/type/manufacture, how does the remote coding for one set of four discriminate from the next set of four?  I can’t have one button press cycle all four relays, right?  Perhaps this is an easy fix.  ??

@CAPPilot posted:

Well, I found this.  If a component failed it would be a hassle.

The only component that might fail would be a relay, after perhaps 100,000 cycles MTBF! Don't think I'll live long enough haha. Also, those relays are pretty easy to change out if/when needed, as long as they have a standard form factor. The one pictured is 433 MHz RF, which would be lots better than an IR unit IMO. IR requires line of sight, like a TV remote. So mounting under the layout might present some troubles. Just my opinion.

Rod

As far as DCS engines seeing the watchdog signal; I would add a DCS remote commander base with a perpetual barking watchdog (as designed by GRJ, and sold by rtr12). Then whenever main power is switched on to the relay distribution block, the PBW sends out the signal about every second. I use one for my main yard and TT supply, running a total of 9 yard tracks and 12 TT tracks. Works great, though there is never more than one or two tracks powered at any given time typically.

Rod

@Rod Stewart posted:

As far as DCS engines seeing the watchdog signal; I would add a DCS remote commander base with a perpetual barking watchdog (as designed by GRJ, and sold by rtr12). Then whenever main power is switched on to the relay distribution block, the PBW sends out the signal about every second. I use one for my main yard and TT supply, running a total of 9 yard tracks and 12 TT tracks. Works great, though there is never more than one or two tracks powered at any given time typically.

Rod

Well, I ordered the 18 channel relay above to see how it works.I also have the perpetual barking watchdog, so I will try Rod's setup.  Unfortunately, the relay will not get here until near the end of April.

@TedW posted:

So if using a remote controlled relay of the same kind/type/manufacture, how does the remote coding for one set of four discriminate from the next set of four?  I can’t have one button press cycle all four relays, right?  Perhaps this is an easy fix.  ??

Depends on what "system" you buy.  Most, if not all, systems have a so-called "learning" mode.  Typically you press a button on the receiver module to put it into Learn mode.  Then you press a button on the remote and the receiver will then recognize the remote in the future.  Obviously you'd need such a protocol to replace a broken remote, or a broken relay module.  Or, you might want to have multiple remotes controlling a single module.  Or a single remote controlling multiple modules.  You just have to get into the fine-print of whatever system you choose.

In the example I showed earlier of an 8 relay receiver, the remote has buttons 0-9.  In this case pressing 1 thru 8 controls the respective relay.  Button 0 turns all relays OFF.  Button 9 turns all relays ON.  That's what I mean by fine-print. 

Note that you can buy Wi-Fi relay modules with different numbers of relays per receiver.  In this case you don't get the handheld remote but instead get an App for your smart-phone or whatever.  Again these will have some kind of learning protocol for the receiver to "pair" with your particular phone/tablet.  Then it becomes a matter of how sophisticated an App you buy as to a single "button" turning everything on, everything off, or orchestrating some kind of on/off sequencing.

Also, in the 8-relay example I showed, note that the module allows for WIRED or WIRELESS control of the 8 relays.  The capability to use either method can be useful.

Finally, another reason not to make the leap-of-faith to WIRELESS-only relay modules is if you want remote control of your relays using your existing Lionel, MTH, etc. handheld remote.  In this case you could use an Accessory controller (e.g., Lionel ASC-like, or MTH AIU).  The Accessory control outputs would be wired to the distant relay modules.  If/when the proprietary Lionel/MTH handheld remotes are supplanted by Tablet Wi-Fi apps then I suppose the tablet app could directly talk to Wi-Fi relay modules.

Keeping the eye-on-the-ball, I still suggest the star of the show are the low-cost relay modules whether wired and/or wireless.  As someone mentioned earlier, back in the day relays were expensive, bulky, and essentially impractical for the application at hand.  Then there was that period when copper prices went thru the roof and thieves would break into buildings just to strip electrical wiring!  The tables have turned.  Hence my initial comment about the tradeoff between thick wiring runs vs. thin wiring runs w/relays.  I suppose one could argue that going wireless is the ultimate reduction of wire thickness!

Well said, Stan.  I wonder how practical wireless relays are when one has 70 blocks, as I do.  It would be economically impractical to get 7 AIUs.  But, I can see that this opens a whole new world to conventional operators who want to run multiple trains at once.

Rod, I have no idea what the amperage is on a dead short, when the majority of the limiting resistance is the transformer and any other components in the line.  How many such over-10 amp flows can a 10-amp relay carry or break before it fails? It's one thing if you have a PH-180 with its instant breaker, but on circuits with other transformers I have thrown the toggle switch to end a short.

Overall, if I were rebuild or rewiring my 30-year old layout, I'd serious consider using relays for blocks.  I do note that if you use star wiring for DCS, which I don't, this permits a higher level of conventional operation through enhanced control.

@Yank2304 posted:

Hello all,

Question - have a 7 track yard and many passenger cars with lights - do not want them to always be on when running layout so I want to wire toggle switches and be able to power the tracks I want on command.

Can anyone recommend good toggle switches that are good for MTH DCS? Should I go 10 amp or 15 amp switches? Any recommendations?