Track power options

The open-circuit voltage for the 180 bricks can be as high as 22 volts, and these are not regulated supplies, so yes, the voltage will drop as the 10 amp limit is approached, but I have not yet had a chance to do the actual testing,

Thanks. Let me know what you find out. I never got close to 10amps. The most amps I saw was 4 on a single loop.

@BigS06 posted:

Thanks. Let me know what you find out. I never got close to 10amps. The most amps I saw was 4 on a single loop.

You should be fine.  How large is your layout and what are you running on it (or a single loop)?  Since you are running full command, a PH180 is a good way to go.  That's what I'm doing.

George

The loop I'm looking to do this to has Atlas O81 curves, no turnouts, just a basic oval. It's 7x18ft. I run a Hudson with 10 MTH incandescent lit passenger cars and a Mallet with a 30 car mixed freight.

What's your voltage reading on the track with lights, smoke and cars on the track?

What would be the best way to power a 6x12 Fastrack Layout? Also I am aware of the engine will be trapped on the inside loop, there is not enough room to add another switch into it.

I have a Legacy layout, I have run Gilbert Flyer double motored PAs with coaches behind with incandescent lights along with other trains on the same circuit. I have my power going through digital volt and amp meters. Depending on the loads on the power company's lines with no load the meters will show as high as 18.5 volts to as low as 17.8 volts. Running  multiple trains actually does little to affect the voltage but does show higher amp draw, never really got much above 2 amps.

From what I understand that Z-4000 can produce over 21 volts, Legacy and TMCC caution not to go above, I believe 19, volts or so.

Ray

PH180 is great- they've gone up in price a bit but if you can find them in the $125 range it's a good deal. Great circuit protection, IMO much better than the 135w brick. My layout is very similar to yours in size about 17 x 8(width varies at the ends to the middle from 7.75-9). Outer loop is manly fastrack with 4 o72 curves and 12 o60 curves(so one o72 and 3 o60s in each corner), small transition section of realtrax for an o42 turnout crossover, one wireless command control o72 fastrack turnout, one remote command(controlled via ASC) o72 fastrack controller. The realtrax switch is powered by an accessory transformer, the fastrack switches by track power due to how they operate electronically(I believe a small DC motor).

But it appears you're mainly worried about power and command control.

My command control/power set-up is as followsNOTE- BPC allows you to switch what power source powers which block, i.e. I can power my entire layout with the 2 180 watt bricks, switch the inner and outer loop power source, etc....)

Outer loop Power flow(Block 1 on BPC): 2 180w PHs ----->Legacy 360w PM------(in-line fuse of 7.5 to 10 amps)--->BPC1, B1--(in-line fuse 7.5 to 10 amps)---->MTH 24 port terminal(with a TVS between 2 input ports)----> 5 or 6 feeders

----Yard power flow(Block 3 on BPC): same as above until feeders---> B3 hot to track section in yard....ground wire from MTH 24 port terminal to yard

Inner loop Power flow(Block 2 on BPC): 2 135w PHs----->TPC 300-----(in-line fuse 7.5-10amp)---->BPC1, B@---(in-line fuse 7.5-10amp)----->mth 12 port terminal(with a TVS between 2 input ports)---->3 or 4 feeders

Command set-up(ONLY in regards to TMCC base, Legacy Base, TIU): Note- if you can't tell from above, TIU is in passive mode with aux power source. I still have a TVS on each output because I never bothered to take them off after switching to passive

Y-cable/PDI connections: Legacy base y cable to A.) TMCC base 1 B.) Multiple modules, one of which is a SER2 with MTH TIU to TMCC cable

Signal to Port connections: TMCC base 1 to Legacy base via Y cable, Legacy base "one wire" to one DCS Ground output terminal then each ground output terminal connected so each DCS ground output is also a source of the Legacy/TMCC signal. DCS fixed 2 to 24 port board, DCS fixed 1 to 12 port terminal board- carrying all command signals to the terminal ports.

The multiple in-line fuses are unnecessary BUT I get added peace of mind from it. All signal strength is great, all power is great. If there's a short on a loop, the fuse between the Legacy PM and BPC or TPC and BPC is what will blow. Before I had the Legacy PM, the in-line fuse would blow much more quickly on even a minor short, the Legacy PM's current fold back feature is really neat and works.

In terms of what I am able to run(or the max that I have run): 4 to 5 Legacy locos(either two freight MUs with 3 and 2 locos MU'ed per consist or one passenger and one freight with 2 and 3 locos respectively) on my outer loop. The Passenger cars are usually 21" Atlas Horizons or K-line Superliners/heritage Amtrak- so I guess all LED. Inner loop 2 or 3 locos in an MU with freight consist. Yard 1 loco on for switching(little 0-6-0 Beth Steel switcher)

Hope that helps a bit with your concerns. Sorry I don't have the actual amperage draw

If I can find it, I would like to have 2 GW-180's since I have a lot of conventional engines and legacy engines.

@Rambler2100 posted:

If I can find it, I would like to have 2 GW-180's since I have a lot of conventional engines and legacy engines.

I am not sure what the GW-180's are but, I also run conventional and TMCC/Legacy locomotives and the PH-180s handle all nicely. To run the conventional equipment I added the Powermasters to the mix to run anything from the remote. It has also been mentioned about circuit protection, fantastic!

Ray

@Rayin"S" posted:

I am not sure what the GW-180's are but, I also run conventional and TMCC/Legacy locomotives and the PH-180s handle all nicely. To run the conventional equipment I added the Powermasters to the mix to run anything from the remote. It has also been mentioned about circuit protection, fantastic!

Ray

GW-180's are traditional tabletop throttle lever units that come with, and are powered, by PH-180's.

Mike

@Rayin"S" posted:

I am not sure what the GW-180's are but, I also run conventional and TMCC/Legacy locomotives and the PH-180s handle all nicely. To run the conventional equipment I added the Powermasters to the mix to run anything from the remote. It has also been mentioned about circuit protection, fantastic!

Ray

How much would it be for 2 of those? I am in need of power supplies for my Legacy steam engines and I have one 275W ZW and 2 CW-80's and a MTH Ready to run power pack for my DCS explorer. and I am not sure if one of the CW-80's can run my outer loop with a steam and diesel lash up.

Powermasters for the 180 are listed at Charles Ro for about a buck. You would want one for each loop.

Ray

https://charlesro-com.3dcartst...om/store_L37146.html

@Rambler2100 I assume because you prefer transformer throttle control over conventional control via a Legacy power master? I have some cheaper alternatives to suggest that are more readily available. First, one quick note- I have a good amount of prewar and other tinplate that obviously requires conventional running- it's been my experience and observation that my prewar locos(Lionel, Bing, Ives, etc...) and postwar tin (Marx) actually seem to do better when run via the power master. I believe there's actual empirical evidence to support my observation as well. However...

There's something about running certain conventional locos and consists with a transformer. And if your looking for the GW 180, then I assume you don't mind a more somewhat more modern looking transformer. That leads to my first alternative- the Lionel Power Station Powerhouse Set (SKU: 6-12938). The major Similarities include the

• Same set up as GW-180, there's a brick that connects to a controller that connects to your track.
• Circuit Breakers: Both BRICKS have a circuit breaker
• Types of circuit breaker: There's an Electronic circuit breaker in the Power Station controller & and electronic breaker in the PH180
• Output terminals: Both controllers have track and accessory output terminals
• Controller Functions: Both provide whistle, bell and directional buttons

. The major differences are:

• Power Output: GW-180=10 amp output via the PH180. PS PH Set=7 amp output via PH135
• Type of Circuit Breakers in bricksH180 has an Electronic circuit breaker, PH135 has mechanical CB.
• Controller CB or Protection in PS PH Set: controller has an electronic circuit breaker(see pg. 8 in the manual). Provides better protection than postwar transformers and, as the manual states, does usually trip before the mechanical CB on the brick
• Controller CB or Protection From Controller in GW-180: controller includes fold-back protection (see pg. 4 in the manual for info regarding fold-back- it's a neat feature).
• Better Protection?: The PH180 circuit breaker, by itself, is good enough as it is to give the CB protection edge to the GW-180 vs the 2 breakers in the Power Station PH Set. Throw in that fold-back protection and it's clear cut.
• Accessory Outputs:  Power Station PH has FIXED accessory output terminals and splits that power with the variable track output(ex.: 5amps to track means 2amps available for accessories).GW-180 has the same variable track output terminals but also has programable accessory terminals

While the GW-180 is superior, it's tough to find and costs more. But the Power Station Powerhouse set isn't a bad alternative. Further, I'd advise putting in-line fuse protection btwn. the track and variable output

Other alternatives: the MTH z-500, z-750, z-1000. All cheaper, but come with postwar style circuit protection

I might just do those 2 loops as fixed power and my figure 8 will be conventional. most of the time i run the legacy only on the 2 loops that are connected.

You could power the Powermasters from your ZW, the Power masters have their own circuit protection built-in. When I first got into TMCC/Legacy I powered my track with post war transformers, I later went to the 180 Powerhouses for all my layout power.

Ray

I run 95% command, though I do run some conventional stuff occasionally.  I also get conventional stuff for repair that I can test on the layout as well.

All my tracks are powered by four PowerHouse 180 transformers.  All the track power goes through the MTH TIU and on to the track.  The TIU gives me conventional control on the mainline if desired, that solves the problem of conventional running.

Does the TIU have its own circuit protection? If that is the case, I might use the postwar ZW but I am looking for something with a chopped sine wave (on the lionel CS2011 youtube channel) for the best performance.

The TIU does NOT have proper circuit protection! If you're using the PW-ZW, I strongly suggest a good circuit breaker or fuses.  I prefer something like the AirPax instant operation magnetic circuit breakers.  The traditional thermal circuit breakers are way too slow as a rule.

I wouldn't be specifically looking for a chopped waveform, that really only applies to some smoke units in conventional operating mode.  Besides, if you use the MTH TIU to control track power for conventional operation, you're getting that chopped waveform from the variable channels.

I do not own a TIU yet, I might get one used on the bay and which Airpax one should I get?

This 10A one is a good choice: AirPax 10A Instant Trip Circuit Breaker.