Union Pacific Livestock cars of the 40’s, brown or yellow?

PRR 5841 posted:

As I continue to slowly acquire PFE cars for my 1940’s era Big Boy, I’ve noticed during research that many PFE trains had a few livestock cars right behind the engine.  I’ll assume the front placement was so that the crew could tend to the animals. Unfortunately, what the B&W pictures and videos I’ve seen do not reveal is the color of the livestock cars.  I’m of the unsubstantiated opinion that the livestock cars were brown during the 40’s then later changing to yellow, possibly around the same post-war time as was done to the Caboose’s.  

Thoughts, model recommendations?  

Thanks

May I suggest that you contact the UPHS (Union Pacific Historical Society) and ask them?

Hot Water posted:

PRR 5841 posted:

As I continue to slowly acquire PFE cars for my 1940’s era Big Boy, I’ve noticed during research that many PFE trains had a few livestock cars right behind the engine.  I’ll assume the front placement was so that the crew could tend to the animals. Unfortunately, what the B&W pictures and videos I’ve seen do not reveal is the color of the livestock cars.  I’m of the unsubstantiated opinion that the livestock cars were brown during the 40’s then later changing to yellow, possibly around the same post-war time as was done to the Caboose’s.  

Thoughts, model recommendations?  

Thanks

May I suggest that you contact the UPHS (Union Pacific Historical Society) and ask them?

Thanks HW.  While your suggestion is appreciated, my experiences with various Historical Societies (Including UPHS) about prototype details has been underwhelming.  The term “Historic” is a broad brush that covers a wide range of topics in railroading.  Locomotive and freight car details represent only a small fraction of the topics any HS would be reasonably expected to cover.  The collective knowledge that exits on this forum, especially where model detailing is concerned, almost always exceeds whatever I have been able to glean from HS’s.

This announcement from the UPHS for an HO model would seem to indicate the stock cars were mineral red at least into the mid 1950's:

http://uphs.org/announcements/...les/Stock%20Car.html

Rusty

The practice of placing loaded stock cars at the front of a train, behind the motive power, was to minimize the possibility of animal injuries or death, due to rough car action as slack ran in and out while running.  It's also the cause load shifting and damaged freight in the cars.

The farther back a car was in a train, the more severe that action could be. Cabooses riding at the rear of a train had long handrails attached to the ceiling, end to end.  The crew members riding there were ever mind full about slack action. Even then, some were seriously injured at times.

S. Islander

Rusty Traque posted:

This announcement from the UPHS for an HO model would seem to indicate the stock cars were mineral red at least into the mid 1950's:

http://uphs.org/announcements/...les/Stock%20Car.html

Rusty

Thank you for the link.  Unfortunately, both schemes are 1951 and later.  Ultimately I’m looking for a couple of UP livestock cars that are correct for the ‘40’s.  

Commendable to strive for model accuracy----HOWEVER---if you cannot find the correct stock car color through your meticulous research---

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?  Just use your own instinct and don't stress.  -Rusty Rails-

Salty Rails posted:

Commendable to strive for model accuracy----HOWEVER---if you cannot find the correct stock car color through your meticulous research---

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?  Just use your own instinct and don't stress.  -Rusty Rails-

Agreed. If no one can find a color picture (remember, color photos were a new thing back then) then paint them as you like. Get 2 and paint one each way and at least one is correct  ........and if the "Prototype Police" show up, show them the door! 

Simon

Every photo I could find showed them to be yellow.

Don't know if these are of any help, but here they are.

Here's a color photo taken in1956, behind a Big Boy, showing both mineral red and yellow stock cars running right behind the engine. Same situation that the OP PRR 5841 wants to replicate behind his Big Boy. Whether these stock cars had been built since1950 is unknown, of course, but at least one or two may possibly have been running in the late 40s. Regardless, if you're looking for prototypical stock cars to run behind your Big Boy, both mineral red and yellow cars will work.

There's lettering on this car that says 3-47. It looks too light to be mineral red (so probably yellow?).

Accuracy in paint and lettering schemes can be an elusive thing to pin-point in time.  When a railroad issues directives that changes the color and/or lettering, it takes a fair amount of time (often years) to accomplish that on a class of freight cars. 

When a change is made, its usually done when a group of cars is shopped for an upgrade, heavy repairs or an overhaul.  This was done when B&O changed its box car color of 'freight car brown'  to bright oxide red (Floquil's zinc chromate primer was good match) in the early 1950's. B&O lettering changed too. It took the better part of that decade to redo their huge fleet of boxcars.

Similarly, UP would have repainted stock cars as they needed upgrading, overhaul or repair. For example, changing to roller bearings and replacing with new trucks.  A re-paint campaign would have also been carried out, if there was no immediate need for those cars.  In any event, its likely that not all stock cars got repainted with new liveries right away.  It took time, (perhaps at least a year or two?) before all stock cars wore the new paint job. Both red and yellow stock cars likely worked together for a while.

I modeling, perhaps the brown car should carry some weathering and the yellow car look fresher?  For a railroad, it's much more important to keep cars working and in operating condition than it is to for them all to have the same color paint job.

S. Islander

Union Pacific freight cars with end or center of car cushioning were painted yellow.  Cushioning was a term used to describe draft gear with longer travel to soften the impact of either coupling or slack action.  The practice of painting cars with cushioning draft gear yellow ended when MoPac management took over in about 1985. 

This raises an interesting question.  why would a railroad use yellow paint on anything that will quickly get dirty and never go near a car washer.  Makes me think of those Katy yellow box cars that Silver Streak sold around 1950.

Same reason Caterpillar painted all their machinery yellow. The yellow pigment was lead and chrome compounds and was extremely durable.  

PRR 5841 posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

This announcement from the UPHS for an HO model would seem to indicate the stock cars were mineral red at least into the mid 1950's:

http://uphs.org/announcements/...les/Stock%20Car.html

Rusty

Thank you for the link.  Unfortunately, both schemes are 1951 and later.  Ultimately I’m looking for a couple of UP livestock cars that are correct for the ‘40’s.  

Can I suggest that you join the (Real) Steam Era Freight Cars Groups IO group.  If a search of their group doesn’t show it a posting will get you what you need. 

They are a no nonsense group but strive for accuracy and have many experts who can and will help.  It was the home of the late Richard Hendrickson who is regarded by many (most) of us as the foremost expert in western roads steam era freight cars. The authors of many well-known publications in steam era freight cars are members as are owners and representatives of several manufacturers.  

Someone there should be able to help you.  

Is it me or does the picture above look like it has yellow sides but mineral red ends and roof?

Many thanks to all who replied, lots of interesting comments as usual.  I joined the “Freight Car” group and await their acceptance.  Even if I do find out what was appropriate for the time frame I’m looking for, doesn’t mean that the model was ever done in O scale so ultimately I may have to compromise.  It is fun doing the research and rewarding if it works out.  

Chris

Rich yoder has sp models, up had a s-40-4 class car.    Freight car red/ brown.

Both Lionel and MTH have done this car (no. 48216), which has a date on it of 1947. Yellow sides, black ends/roof.

breezinup posted:

Both Lionel and MTH have done this car (no. 48216), which has a date on it of 1947. Yellow sides, black ends/roof.

Nice car.  I’ve never done a MTH conversion, easy, difficult?

Looks like the bracing on MTH stock car is nothing like the real McCoy.  Good luck straightening THAT out.  Ahhhhh---seems like "every silver cloud has a dark lining"  -Salty Rails-

Salty Rails posted:

Looks like the bracing on MTH stock car is nothing like the real McCoy.  Good luck straightening THAT out.  Ahhhhh---seems like "every silver cloud has a dark lining"  -Salty Rails-

Just my opinion, but I don't think anyone's going to notice anything about the bracing when these cars are running around on a model train layout. Besides, there were plenty of variations in stock car bracing construction (see below).  In any case, the OP asked about color and availability of models for UP stockcars dated in the 40s, and he has answers to both. I think the Lionel car (top one) is a little more accurate in placard and lettering size, but both cars would work fine. Again, just my opinion.

I love stock cars.  All of mine are Lobaugh or Scale Craft, with only an occasional wood, Max, or IMP.

K-Line, Atlas, Atlas - Trainman, and MTH did several brown and yellow UP stock cars. My dad has about 50 of them he pulls behind his Lionel UP #9000.

breezinup posted:

Both Lionel and MTH have done this car (no. 48216), which has a date on it of 1947. Yellow sides, black ends/roof.

Just sayin... The UP 48216 car in the picture doesn't look anything like the MTH car.  Sides and ends aren't even close. 

PRR 5841 did you hear anything from RealSTMFC yet?   I didn't see your posting on there.  I could ask and see what they have to say. 

Sadly the only accurate O scale stock cars are the Lionel scale cars 6-17xxx only (ACF MP prototype) or brass PRR K cars or Yoder UP/SP and ATSF unless you do resin kits.

You guys are trying to tempt me . . .

breezinup posted:

Salty Rails posted:

Looks like the bracing on MTH stock car is nothing like the real McCoy.  Good luck straightening THAT out.  Ahhhhh---seems like "every silver cloud has a dark lining"  -Salty Rails-

Just my opinion, but I don't think anyone's going to notice anything about the bracing when these cars are running around on a model train layout. Besides, there were plenty of variations in stock car bracing construction (see below).  In any case, the OP asked about color and availability of models for UP stockcars dated in the 40s, and he has answers to both. I think the Lionel car (top one) is a little more accurate in placard and lettering size, but both cars would work fine. Again, just my opinion.

Thank you for your wise opinion---Now  I understand that when the stockcars are flying by down the track, the bracing won't be noticed----but the color will??

How IS it THEN, the placard and lettering size WILL be noticed?

In MY opinion, I thought we were discussing >>>REALISTIC<<< modeling.  -Salty Rails-

Salty Rails posted:

breezinup posted:

Salty Rails posted:

Looks like the bracing on MTH stock car is nothing like the real McCoy.  Good luck straightening THAT out.  Ahhhhh---seems like "every silver cloud has a dark lining"  -Salty Rails-

Just my opinion, but I don't think anyone's going to notice anything about the bracing when these cars are running around on a model train layout. Besides, there were plenty of variations in stock car bracing construction (see below).  In any case, the OP asked about color and availability of models for UP stockcars dated in the 40s, and he has answers to both. I think the Lionel car (top one) is a little more accurate in placard and lettering size, but both cars would work fine. Again, just my opinion.

Thank you for your wise opinion---Now  I understand that when the stockcars are flying by down the track, the bracing won't be noticed----but the color will??

How IS it THEN, the placard and lettering size WILL be noticed?

In MY opinion, I thought we were discussing >>>REALISTIC<<< modeling.  -Salty Rails-

Well, all the OP asked was a question about the correct color. That's the extent of it. 

As an aside, yes, it seems obvious that the color of the car is going to be more noticable than the shape of the bracing. They all share the common characteristic of having small boards running vertically and diagonally. I think people are also likely to look at the placard to see what the railroad line is. The size of the lettering on the Lionel car (top one) is larger and more noticeable. As another plus, it's more like the prototype, which also has similarly sized lettering.

Now you have confused me TOTALLY----

In YOUR OWN WORDS---"Well all the OP asked was a question about the correct color. That's the extent of it."

Then you natter on, predicting  that  people will look at the placard, what lettering is more noticeable, and WHAT is more like the the prototype.

Have you considered a career in politics?

Seemed pretty reasonable to me.

PRR 5841 posted:

Many thanks to all who replied, lots of interesting comments as usual.  I joined the “Freight Car” group and await their acceptance.  Even if I do find out what was appropriate for the time frame I’m looking for, doesn’t mean that the model was ever done in O scale so ultimately I may have to compromise.  It is fun doing the research and rewarding if it works out.  

Chris

Hello.  I posted the question on realSTMFC and according to the 8 posters that replied it seems there was no definitive cut-over.   There is links, etc, in the material there about car colors and classes and some discussion on painting the cars different for roller bearing versus plain bearing as well as pre-1940 versus post-1940.

*** update *** The masters speaking so far on realSTMFC indicate an early 1947 start to yellow with silver roofs and ends  ONLY FOR ROLLER BEARING EQUIPPED CARS  which were used in dedicated Salt Lake City/LA "high speed" service.    Cars remained freight car red ("box car red") all the way up through the end of service.   They did discuss that cars of both colors did get silver roofs at some time subsequent  to that. ***

As noted earlier the Rich Yoder S-40-6 is freight car red.

Hopefully you can get on the group soon so you can take advantage of the info.  If you're into prototype modeling and freight cars the experts on there are the schnitz.