Value of Lionel TMCC PRR F3s?

Have you considered the Neil Young F3s that were in the 2014 catalog?  They are very nice and can be HD for under $430 new.

My understanding is that the Neil Young F3's are basically PW shells with new workings.  The desired K-Line A's have far more detail..applied grab irons and side grills, etc.  One subtle issue I find with the K-Line A's is the narrow height of the windshield openings...much like those on Lionel PW F3's.  My set of AA K-line's are earlier...still 4 motors with TMCC but no cruise...just dying for a smoking B unit and an ERR cruise upgrade.

 

Sorry for dragging this off topic some.  I have no experience with current pricing besides knowing that my used K-Line set was $200..er...make that $150 USD.

 

Bruce

The Neil Young F3s are indeed beautiful but as Bruce pointed out, they are essentially traditional postwar sized F3's. I've changed over to mostly full-scale equipment and the two generally don't mix!

As have I.  But in comparison, they were close enough for me.  Good luck in your search.  BTW, did those K-Line units have can motors?  I assume they did.  They sound like they would be a nice addition.

I would pick the K line I over the Lionel . I have the K line WP A B A set with TMCC and I added EOB speed control. It came with 4 motors and all 3 have smoke units. The sound is ok.  I am thinking of up grading the sound. I think the new Atlas has them all beat. Good luck. 

I can't recall any K-Line stuff with anything but can motors, certainly it would be rare.   The stuff made right before K-Line died were all certainly can motors.

 

Hi C. Sam,

I have this exact set. The sound is great, however the gear mechanism is hit or miss.

The trucks have both axles power and there is an idler gear that likes to lock up when changing directions. The cab lights are dimmed down but they are on all the time.

The unit spacing is far apart, and the smoke units are difficult to fill, also it came with a non smoking b unit.

 

The UP F3 units released the same year suffer the same shortages.

Not a deal breaker but not worth 1200.00!

 

For 850.00 I would focus on a set of Legacy units, if you can find the road name.

the GTW's were blown out for 400.00 last year. Add a non powered B for about 150.00

 

The Legacy releases are like night and day, better speed steps, sound, quilling horn...

Bang for the buck if you can get the TMCC version for 400 buy them, otherwise I would wait for the Legacy versions to be re-issued.

Actually, Lionel "traditional" F-3s are pretty much scale-sized (as are "traditional" Geeps). I run them on the layout with Lionel "scale" F-3s and they look fine running together. When you see them running at speed, you have to pay attention to see that much difference; it's mostly in relatively small details.

Actually, those Pennsy F-3s are newer than that - they were cataloged in 2004 Vol. 2, and didn't come out until 2005. Still, it is surprising that they went for that much; the catalog retail price was $900 when new! I don't know if they're scarce or not, but the seller was extremely fortunate to get the price he did, IMHO. That said, Lionel doesn't make a whole lot of any one thing anymore, particularly relatively expensive sets of engines, and the popular road names can sell out pretty quickly. 

 

The Bay is such a crap shoot, who knows? - someone may have happened to come across those at just a certain time and really had to have them for some reason (they hadn't been reissued in Legacy and were the only game in town, and perhaps he hadn't been able to find a lower price at the time he was looking and assumed that's the best he could do, etc.) or perhaps he was just uninformed about these trains. Sometimes inexperience plays a role. In any case, inexplicable things happen at auction sites sometimes. There's a set on the Bay right now for $1140 or some such, which is out in left field somewhere. I don't know why some people waste their time listing at the prices they do.

 

I think you're being a little low in saying Legacy F-3s, PAs and Sharks (A-A sets) go for under $500. It seems around $600 is more the norm, unless the road name isn't a popular one. I saw an AA set of older Legacy F-7s in a popular road name get bid up to $735 last week. But some of the poorer sellers can get down under $500.

 

If you can't wait for Legacy Pennsy F-3s or F-7s (of course, who knows when they may come out - could be years), as between the K-Lines and Lionels, personally I'd lean toward the Lionels (although I have an ABA set of K-Line F-3s and like them a lot). As has been mentioned, the K-Line sounds can't compare with Lionel's, and they don't have cruise so you'd have to invest in that. Note that these Lionel Pennsys also have the later, improved version of Odyssey (with the on/off switch). 

 

Another thing that comes to mind is lighting. The lights on my K-Line F-3s are pretty dim. I plan to replace them with brighter, longer lasting LEDs at some point. The Lionel Pennsys are already equipped with LEDs. There's also a lot of detail on the scale Lionel F-3s, more than on the K-Line (based on the examples of each that I own).

 

One additional thing that would concern me a little is that K-Line isn't in business anymore. There is no parts or service support from the company, obviously. While some parts are available (at least for now), many are not. I'm not sure I'd be overly concerned with this, but it is a factor to consider.

 

As to a fair price on these Lionel Pennsys, of course it depends on how bad you want them, and how soon. And it depends on the examples that come up, how often and how much, so you can judge the market. To me (just my opinion), I'd say $475 for the ABA would be a very good buy, $500-575 wouldn't be a bad price, and the more it gets over $600 the more questionable it becomes. Then again, the justification game that's played by many is (for example) that $650 is only $100 more than $550, and when buying upper end O gauge trains, what's $100? You'll have to decide that one. 

Sam, these will no doubt show up at the York Meet. Let me know how hungry you are for them.

Thanks guys..  I bought the K-Line B unit because it had smoke for a possible repaint for my Atlas GM&O F3's but when it arrived it was so pretty that I thought I might go ahead and find some matching AA's.  The fella that had the Lionel set at $850 offered to trade with me for something if it didn't sell this round. I figured an ABBA with three units smoking would be nice!

 

As for Legacy pricing, I've bought Santa Fe PAs' for $400, B&O Sharks for $375, and most recently a pair of Union Pacific PA's (on the bay) for a mere $300. All on the secondary market obviously but all three sets were 'like new'.  Actually, I find that prefer the non-quilling horn on my TMCC diesels better...

Some of those higher prices on EBay (SOME) are for recovering all the stupid fees. At $850 for the set, he lost over $100 just for selling them. So even though still a bit high, he got someone to buy them.

Sam,

 

personally, what I did was piecemeal the set together which gave me the chance to pay the least amount for an ABB set, about $400 (Powered A, Powered B, Dummy B).

 

Maybe some nice person on this forum will offer you a great price, like I was abole to do.

 

Good luck in your quest!

 

Thanks,

Mario

Any of those early F units with Tmcc should go for no more then $400. I have most of them and paid $400 or less for them In like new condition. Some guys on ebay are crazy with their prices but keep looking there are deals out there.

I have no comment on various engine values.  I am just posting a few pictures to illustrate how a Lionel PRR Traditional F3 compares with a Lionel B&O Scale F3.

 

First picture shows the height difference.

 

Second picture shows nose details.

 

Third Picture shows roof detail and length differences.

 

Fourth picture is just a close up of the roof fans and vent details.

 

Last picture is just a better picture of the scale F3 roof details.

 

I no longer own the B&O engines, so I am unable to take any additional comparison pictures.

 

 

Just an FYI, many 3 rail MFg'd PRR EMD F3a's are incorrect with the large Number board and separate marker light detail on the nose. All PRR F3a's had the OEM small number board and marker light combo. This omissed detail is NOT easy to fix.

Douglas and Weiglin's Pennsy Diesels is the definitive history of Pennsy's somewhat strange practices when it came to diesels.  Yes, it seems that the F3s all had small number boards. Many or perhaps most F-3s had the "chicken wire" carbody, but some were fitted with grills which made them look like F-7s.  The F-7s  were equipped with large number boards.

 

Generally E units powered passenger trains, but there was a series of dual FP-7s which

handled both freight and passenger service.  I'm enclosing a shot I took in St. Louis

a zillion years ago which shows an FP7 complete with large board and small number

adorned in freight livery pulling the Spirit of St. Louis out of Union Station headed east.

 

So when MTH introduced F-3s pulling passenger trains, they weren't that far off the mark. Unfortunately the number on the units 9500 9502 were straight F3 units not FP7s.

 

Lew Schneider

 

Interesting that there was a recent thread showing how some folks are lowering their scale F units to make them more realistic. 

The photos illustrate that "traditional" Lionel F-3s are essentially scale-sized engines, as noted previously. Incidentally, the traditional Pennsy F-3 pictured is no. 8970, made 35 years ago (1979-80) in the MPC days. There were also some detail improvements/additions made by Lionel to their traditional F-3s subsequent to the time that engine was made. Those particular engines (there was an A-B-A) are beautiful, very attractive to see in person. That's a nice example Greg has pictured.

I don't know where you got those engines, but those prices are quite extraordinary, I'd say. I've never seen these engines priced that low, and would jump on them as well. Why someone would dump Legacy UP PAs for $300 is beyond me - maybe they were stolen.  

 

Even at Nassau's current blowout-to-end-all-blowouts-dump-'em sale, the B&O Sharks are $450, and the cheapest ones on the Bay presently are $500.  

The Legacy UP's were listed as "missing the rear doors" but otherwise like new. Opening bid was $350 with no takers for two weeks. I wrote asking what was missing (rear doors?) and from the photos he sent it appeared that it was the diaphragms that were missing. I offered $300 and he accepted. They appear to be unrun. I added some old K-Line passenger diaphragms until I eventually get the proper ones from Lionel.

The AT&SF PA's and B&O Sharks were purchased from Forum members. I rarely buy new unless it is something I haven't seen elsewhere...

Nice!  I'd be all over bargains like that.  If only it weren't for the 2 thieves in the middle, shipping and customs.

 

Bruce