What Devices Do I Need?

Are you referring to an Airpax Instant Breaker as your "short detector"?

What issues are you having with the TMCC Crane car?  Model#?  I'm trying to get my head around the suggestion to use a chopped sine wave transformer to correct it's issues.

@texgeekboy posted:

I was talking to a Lionel service tech about a problem with my TMCC crane, and explained to him my current environment. He said that I should get a ZW-L since it outputs a square wave, rather than a sine wave.

I don't even have the words to respond to this within forum rules.

NO, NO, NO.

@Vernon Barry posted:

I don't even have the words to respond to this within forum rules.

NO, NO, NO.

Vernon, don't sell yourself short, it seems you did find the words.

Bottom line:

You have pure sine wave output from a ZW and have gone steps to protect for both current (amperage) and voltage. That is a reasonable and sound power source given the added external protection methods you outlined.

Both the TMCC and Legacy crane cars specifically must have AC track power, not DC track power. This is because they use TRIACs to control the couplers and the outrigger legs. If powered with DC and a coupler or the outriggers fire- they stay activated until DC power is shut down and could potentially melt from that kind of continued activation. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not about sine-wave or square wave, it's about simply an AC power source that crosses the zero voltage line (turns on and off - completely off). This rule of needing AC is valid for most Lionel trains and accessories that used TRIACs for output control transistors. Example SC-1, SC-2, anything LCRU, R2LC, Railsounds 3- the list goes on and on. Basically a huge swath of anything from that time era and "TMCC". The common element is the use of the TRIAC- again, because it needs the power source to hit or cross the zero line to "turn off". It's like a latch, once triggered, they stay latched until the circuit opens or the voltage goes to true zero. The control line or sometimes "gate" status- turning it off does not cause a TRIAC to turn off.

@Vernon Barry posted:

NO, NO, NO.

Excellent choice of words in this situation.

Mike

Also, being I have 2 crane cars (one TMCC, one Legacy), and the trackside cranes as well, I hopefully can point you at a more correct solution for your crane car.

Common problems I've experienced:

#1 outriggers are just finicky and the latch tuning on them is hit or miss. They are coil operated for unlatching, but the latches are plastic tabs and subject to minor defects that change the force and reliability of the latch. They are either stuck in and don't fire out when commanded, or unlatch on their own and shoot out with just the car rolling around the track. It's not electrical- it's a mechanical problem in this case.

#2 electrocouplers in general can have all kinds of problems from minor manufacturing defects. Example are some that require higher track voltage to unlatch. Minor flashing or die cast defects in the latch area and knuckle can cause this. Again, this is more mechanical than electrical- and just more power can sometime overcome a defective latch in some cases (pulls the plunger further back against the internal spring).

@SteveH,

Yep, that's the circuit breaker.  That was from one of your posts last year.

@Vernon Barry,

You were the other expert I looked at for guidance in my current setup.  Thank you.

So, on my TMCC crane, it was brand new, out of the box, although it was manufactured in 2005 or so (6-29832).  It worked great for a couple of hours (the outriggers were finicky, but no biggie to me, and the electro couplers worked fine).  I left it for an hour or so, came back, and it no longer worked.  The engine ID no longer worked, I tried reassigning one and that didn't work either.  I did the reset from the Base1-L manual, and that appeared to do nothing.  Simple commands like turning the lights on/off didn't work.  That's why I called a Lionel service center.

I'm going to have to walk back some of my statements on what the service tech said.  I extrapolated that he said the ZW-L outputs square waves, he never actually said that.  He was talking about a ZW-L, then went into a discussion that the crane would work better with something that output square waves.  He started talking about some add on transformer or something.  The model number escapes me.

So, after I send in my crane for service and get it back, do you have any recommendations on what devices I need to add to my setup beyond the ZW and Cab1-L/Base1-L?

@texgeekboy posted:

So, on my TMCC crane, it was brand new, out of the box, although it was manufactured in 2005 or so (6-29832).  It worked great for a couple of hours ...  I left it for an hour or so, came back, and it no longer worked.  The engine ID no longer worked, I tried reassigning one and that didn't work either.  I did the reset from the Base1-L manual, and that appeared to do nothing.  Simple commands like turning the lights on/off didn't work.  That's why I called a Lionel service center.

I'm going to have to walk back some of my statements on what the service tech said.  I extrapolated that he said the ZW-L outputs square waves, he never actually said that.  He was talking about a ZW-L, then went into a discussion that the crane would work better with something that output square waves.  He started talking about some add on transformer or something.  The model number escapes me.

So, after I send in my crane for service and get it back, do you have any recommendations on what devices I need to add to my setup beyond the ZW and Cab1-L/Base1-L?

Here's my concern:

That symptom of not responding to a previous TMCC address after working properly could happen a number of ways. One way, let's say the crane car just was not getting power at all. It is subject to pickup rollers and wheels as well as track condition. It's has no direct track powered light to indicate power is present- all you know is nothing responded or worked.

I'm not saying there could not be something wrong with the crane. I just am completely unaware of any such problem ever of the crane forgetting a TMCC ID and then further, not being able to program a new one.

Square wave VS sine wave has nothing and I mean nothing to do with it and anyone working at Lionel and telling you something like that- I consider suspect. Not only that- they are trying to sell you something- more components or their flagship $1k transformer.

Sure, you could put Legacy powermasters between your ZW and the track and control the track for conventional via a powermaster. Honestly, I don't see an advantage of that other than the desire to remotely control a conventional train- not sure if you want or need that.

What is killing me here is Lionel and other folks talking about these have said how ZW-L and Legacy Powermasters are supposed to be closer to sine wave output (given their construction and knowing they are using FET transistors in an arrangement similar to the GW180, and newest CW80). I just don't get where square wave or chopped came into the answer given the source.

Far be it for me to doubt Lionel- ha ha.

Also, I'm just going to say this. That's Lionel LLC, not "Lionel". As of late, putting the "Limited" in the big L name as far as I'm concerned.

Limited warranty, limited parts support, limited options, limited QC....... limited diagrams (2019 and higher).

"Limited warranty, limited parts support, limited options, limited QC......."

I understand your frustration.  However......things change.  There are few problems I have as a consumer that cannot be fixed by throwing money at them, or simply doing without some things (daily newspaper; paper medical charts; inexpensive restaurant meals).

Could be worse.  Could be K-Line, Weaver or MTH.  Got to go with the flow as the world changes.  For many products, Lionel is becoming the only game in town, effectively.  The number of copies sold of the major three rail magazines is down to 1/4 of what they used to be in some cases.   Lionel's stringencies may get worse before they get better in terms of availability of service and parts, given the apparent shrinking market size in three rail O gauge.   The company is living with very real economic constraints, I'd guess, that mandate their changes we don't like.  I've had no difficulty with QC, by the way,  and I've purchased many dozens of their products in the last 10 years.  I think the often cited QC problems are uncommon and more discussed than real, restricted to a few lemons here and there.   I hope things won't get more difficult, but it seems likely.

I don't think the original poster needs anything different given he or she only has two command locos and the command crane.  A properly serviced ZW with a modern circuit breaker and TVS, and a cab-1L and 1L command base should be entirely sufficient for power and command needs.   

The ZW-L is a very nice power supply and most are very happy with it, but it is pricey and probably more than what is needed for many folks.  If he wants to remotely control the conventional locos, a Legacy Powermaster would be less expensive than the ZW-L and provide that feature. 

Back to the TMCC crane car...

Again, 2 things, making sure it has power, and making sure it has TMCC signal.

On the power front, again this one is a challenge because of the lack of some form of "pilot light" an LED or bulb powered by direct track power indicating the crane has power. At best, placing something like a lighted caboose right beside it on the same section of track.

On the TMCC radio signal front, more of a challenge because of the invisible nature of radio waves. These crane cars use an antenna mounted to the top of the roof section connected with a wire. So ensure that is not shorted to the shell but also the wire didn't break.

Also, that pesky run/program switch has to be in run.

Also, just found this while doing some searching https://ogrforum.com/topic/41694217553611909

And, this is a great service document for the cranes https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ts/5608719899256.pdf

Given that topic above linked, hoping you do not have a larger electronic failure and that was the first time I saw that topic. I have not had electrical or signal problems with any of my cranes (again, both Legacy and TMCC crane cars, Legacy trackside MOW crane, and the moving TMCC gantry crane).

@Vernon Barry,

Thanks again.  There is power to the crane since the lights do light up, mostly!  Sometimes, the light will not come on, but if I carefully lift the entire unit off the track (so as to not create a short), and then put it back on in the same manner, the lights will come on.  I have a 100% success rate with that procedure.

Also, thanks for the link to the thread in OGR.  I've searched here many times on the TMCC crane issue and had not noticed that one.