What is "Adding a Brick?"

Transformers power trains, track is just the wiring to get the power to the train.

If doesn't matter if you have 3 feet of track or 400 feet- the transformer is not larger because the track is longer.

The transformer is larger when/if you power more trains or accessories that draw more current.

Adding a brick is referring to command controlled layouts, using constant 18V, and thus using directly connected Lionel Powerhouse "bricks" 180 Watts 18V 10A.

If you are running or plan to still run conventional trains- you need voltage control- so you need a Z controller (the Z100 brick plus controller). That said, typically you have switches and possibly other wiring, so the instant you add another transformer now you have to understand phasing. So it's better IMO at that point to get a multi output transformer so that the ouputs are guaranteed to be in phase- along with other benefits- like a Z4000.

Vernon,

Thanks for that excellent information.

As you note, my Z-1000 already has one MTH Power Brick attached to the controller.  I see that I can buy NIB MTH Power Bricks on the Bay for around $90.

Is there any way I can just but an additional power brick, and then "hook that into" my current controller and power brick, to provide more juice to run more engines and accessories?

Thanks,

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Is there any way I can just but an additional power brick, and then "hook that into" my current controller and power brick, to provide more juice to run more engines and accessories?

No, because the Z controller having the power go through it has a current limit.  You are adding a loop, you likely want independent control of voltage/power on that loop- you need a second set- Zcontroller+ Z1000 "brick".

Again, unless you want to smoke a Zcontroller, paralleling 2 Z1000 bricks (through it) probably isn't the right thing to try.

Thanks Vernon.

Although I would love to buy a new Z-4000, it looks like the way to go, for me at least, is to just buy a NIB Z-1000, create a separate power block for the outside loop, and just hook the second Z-1000 to that.   I would end up with a pair of Z-1000 controllers side by side on my control table, but for me, that would not be much different than having one Z-4000 with two levers on it.

I guess I am assuming that if I have a set of tracks powered by one Z-1000, and a separate set of tracks powered by the another Z-1000, and the two sets of tracks are totally isolated from each other by insulated pins, then when both transformers are on, and a locomotive crosses over from one track section to the other,  the loco and transformers won't burn up or get damaged by reason of the rear wheels being on one section and the front wheels being on the other section as it travels across.  The transformers would not be phased, but I hope that for the momentary passage, this would not be a huge deal.

Any thoughts on whether my assumption is correct?

Thanks,

Mannyrock

No, phasing is a huge deal. Instead of a few volt different (lets say 2V but maximum ever possible of 18V) when the transformers are in phase, that jumps to 18V+18V = 36V jump across your train wheels and pickup rollers.

Again, if 2 transformers are in phase, both tracks turned up to about the same control setting on a Zcontroller, the difference is minimal- but again, in phase.

When both tracks are out of phase and sitting at say roughly 18V each, the gap or isolation point where the train crosses sees a huge 18+18=36V with huge sparks and enough voltage to fry electronics sky high.

Awwwk!   Thanks for the advice.

Once again, here is proof that I am an electronics idiot!

So, for now, I guess I will just use my one Z-1000, and put lots of power feeds into the new track, and see how that works out.

As others may have observed, I have done everything possible to do my layout "on the cheap" over the past 3 years, so I guess it is finally catching up with me.  :-)

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Once again, here is proof that I am an electronics idiot!

Mannyrock

Mannyrock,

Phasing and providing ample power are not electronics things.  These concepts have been around long before electronics were invented.  Instead they are basic electrical things.  You do not need to be an electronics expert to understand them; just a little patience, a little training in basic electricity, and a little encouragement -- all things that toy and model trains have cultivated and helped to provide for the last 120 years.

By your comments, in many threads here, I can tell that you're a good student.  Hopefully us fellow forumites are being acceptable teachers and coaches.

Keep up the good work.

Mike

@Vernon Barry posted:

No, phasing is a huge deal. Instead of a few volt different (lets say 2V but maximum ever possible of 18V) when the transformers are in phase, that jumps to 18V+18V = 36V jump across your train wheels and pickup rollers.

Again, if 2 transformers are in phase, both tracks turned up to about the same control setting on a Zcontroller, the difference is minimal- but again, in phase.

When both tracks are out of phase and sitting at say roughly 18V each, the gap or isolation point where the train crosses sees a huge 18+18=36V with huge sparks and enough voltage to fry electronics sky high.

Even worse than just 36 volts to the equipment, each transformer will be effectively seeing a dead short, since both momentary "plus" voltage terminals will be feeding directly into the "minus" terminals of the other transformer, when the insulated gap between the sections of track is bridged by the wheels and/or pickup of any rolling stock. I'm not sure the transformers' circuit breakers would have time to pop out, but the sparks would be spectacular and the potential equipment damage enormous. I've managed to literally melted pickups off rolling stock with a short of under-18 volts -- I hate to think what 36 volts or so (and double the power capacity!) could do if given the chance . . .

I'm no expert, but Mannyrock seems to have given up on his plan to get a second Z-1000 for his outside loop. He doesn't need to give up on that plan, but just needs to be sure the two transformers are in phase, which isn't terribly difficult to do.

Thanks Breezin,

After I get the table extensions built, and the new track laid, which will be in a totally isolated power block, I am going to revisit the issue of buying a second Z-1000, and putting it in phase with the existing one.   It sounds like the best long -term solution.

When the track and switches are done, I will research everything I can on the Search function here, and then check back with you guys before I do anything.

Thanks again.

Mannyrock

Thank you for the comments Mike,

I couldn't have completed my layout without the tons of advice you have all given.

I know I have developed a bad reputation for asking for advice, and then dissecting and questioning every aspect of it, but unfortunately, I have one of these "critical thinking" brains that will never let me simply accept a solution or information, until I have independently assessed every piece of it and convinced myself that it is totally correct.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

I know I have developed a bad reputation for asking for advice, and then dissecting and questioning every aspect of it, but unfortunately, I have one of these "critical thinking" brains that will never let me simply accept a solution or information, until I have independently assessed every piece of it and convinced myself that it is totally correct.

I hasten to point out that doing that for every suggestion you receive is likely to have people avoiding offering solutions if you beat the topic to death and continually question everything ad infinitum.

@Mannyrock posted:

Hey Guys,

    I currently have a layout with about 80 feet of track, and lots of power feed wires, and I use a Z-1000 transformer.  This provides plenty of juice two run three medium and small size locos at the same time.

   But, I am currently getting ready to add a large outside loop, about 6 ft. by 12 foot.

   I am pretty sure that the Z-1000 won't have enough power to run the entire layout with this additional track.

   I have seen references here over the past years where people talk about adding a brick to their layout.

   What does this mean?   

   Is this what I need to do?  Or do I have to put this large loop into a separate power block and attach a second Z-1000 to it to run it?

Thanks,

Mannyrock

Actually, before you go buy another transformer (since you are trying to save money) why not just add your new loop and hook it up to the existing Z-1000.  They actually handle a lot for their size.  Always depends on what you are running.

Engines actually draw very few amps. 

It is incandescent bulbs that suck the amps.  So, if you have lots of older passenger cars with Incandescent bulbs, they will draw lots of amps as opposed to newer passenger car with led lamps.

If you run all freight, then no issue.

If the number of amps pulled is more than the Z-1000 can handle the breaker will just trip.  So, you will know at that point you need more power.

One thing I definitely have seen in the hobby is "overkill" on things like power and feeds, etc.

Just try it if money is a concern.  Why waste money you could spend on another train!  lol.

Gunrunner,  Yes, I agree.  And it is really hard on a marriage as well!

Sean,  Thanks for the advice.  Thankfully, I have no accessories or incandescent bulbs hooked to my Z-1000.  Gunrunner was good enough to warn me about that a few years ago.   I run my accessories with a separate starter-set transformer mounted under the table, and I only use LED bulbs in my switch lanterns and cars.  (None of them are train activated.)

       I do run a lot of direct power feeds to the tracks, because I use 18 gauge wire.   That wire is really easy and fast to work with, so I put a set of feeds into every 6 feet of track.  The feed distances from the transformer are all 5 1/2 feet or less, so there is not much power loss if any.   I can install a new set of feed wires into any section of my track, run them under the table, and then back to a little distribution block next to the transformer, in about 15 minutes.  I know that this is not a preferred method, but it is very simple, fast and works great for me.

Thanks,

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Thank you for the comments Mike,

I couldn't have completed my layout without the tons of advice you have all given.

I know I have developed a bad reputation for asking for advice, and then dissecting and questioning every aspect of it, but unfortunately, I have one of these "critical thinking" brains that will never let me simply accept a solution or information, until I have independently assessed every piece of it and convinced myself that it is totally correct.

Mannyrock

I see now why you’re perpetually stuck, and can’t  see the forest for the trees…….you’re really overthinking this one,…..

Pat

@Mannyrock posted:

After I get the table extensions built, and the new track laid, which will be in a totally isolated power block, I am going to revisit the issue of buying a second Z-1000, and putting it in phase with the existing one.   It sounds like the best long -term solution.

--AC is short for "alternating current". Meaning it reverses polarity (in the case of North America) 60 times a second.

--By "phasing" the transformers, this means making sure the current coming out of each transformer is the same polarity at any given 1/60th of a second.

--If they're not in phase, that means that the current coming out of both transformers is the opposite polarity at any given moment. That means trouble if both outputs get connected, as described above by both Vernon Barry and Steve Tyler.

--With postwar transformers, the orientation of the plug was important since the wall plugs weren't polarized, leaving open the possibility that two transformers plugged into adjoining sockets could have one of them backwards with respect to the other, and the AC current coming out their low-voltage ends would be out of phase. You would normally test for this by connecting the ground terminals (labeled "U") of the two transformers together, setting them to the same voltage, then briefly bridging the "hot" terminals together with another wire. If there was a spark, you'd unplug one of the transformers flip its plug over and plug it back in, then repeat the test. The lack of a spark would indicate the two transformers were in phase.

--It's been a long time since I last used my Z-1000, so I can't say with 100% certainty that its plug is polarized (one prong larger than the other so it can only fit one way), but even so, you'd perform this test just in case the transformer was erroneously connected backwards inside the case (or, more likely, your second Z-controller was connected  backwards with respect to your existing one).

In any case, your first action would be to follow the suggestion of Sean's Train Depot, and just build that second loop. If you're adding one additional train to your layout, your Z-1000 will most likely handle it. If you're just moving one of your existing trains to the new loop, then there's no difference so far as the transformer is concerned.

---PCJ

Well Pat,

Yes, I sure do get stuck, but maybe not perpetually stuck, since I built and completed my existing layout 3 years ago in record time, with no more space on the 5' x 10' layout to put more track or switches   :-)

But, I sure did ask you guys TONS of questions.  :-O   And I could not have gone forward without all of the support.

And, ya know, it is tough sometimes for a novice to act immediately on a suggestion, because often, even the experts disagree on what I should do.

Thanks for all of the help you have given in the past.

Mannyrock

Railride,

Thanks for all of that excellent information.

I am printing it out and putting it in my notebook, so I have it a few months from now when I look into another Z-1000.

Mannyrock

Not to be confused with "Sh*tting a Brick", which is a totally different operation.

Andre

@laming posted:

Not to be confused with "Sh*tting a Brick", which is a totally different operation.

Andre

Correct, this phenomenon happens when your favorite locomotive is heading for the floor!…🤣🤣🤣🤣

Pat