Where did all the NYC steamers go??

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least their death by torch went to a good cause.

The real problem was not what happened in 1952, but rather in '56-'58.
And that is 90% the fault of the railroad enthusiast community...
just like today, more or less! You can't blame Bob Young and Al
Perlman for doing what they did, when we individually and collectively
did NOTHING to assure the safe preservation of any meaningful NYCS steam.

quote:

Originally posted by jaygee:
The real problem was not what happened in 1952, but rather in '56-'58.
And that is 90% the fault of the railroad enthusiast community...
just like today, more or less! You can't blame Bob Young and Al
Perlman for doing what they did, when we individually and collectively
did NOTHING to assure the safe preservation of any meaningful NYCS steam.

Oh, REALLY NOW....

Blame the rail enthusiast community.

There were considerably fewer organized preservation groups back in the 50's. And if the railroad management had a deaf ear, it wouldn't have made a difference anyway.

Even back then it took more effort than saying "Please save this locomotive, it means ever so much to us."

Be thankful for what was saved.

Rusty

quote:

Originally posted by jaygee:
The real problem was not what happened in 1952, but rather in '56-'58.
And that is 90% the fault of the railroad enthusiast community...
just like today, more or less! You can't blame Bob Young and Al
Perlman for doing what they did, when we individually and collectively
did NOTHING to assure the safe preservation of any meaningful NYCS steam.

You can say the same thing about the New Heaven RR. Just before the last I-5 was cut up, the NH went around to see if anyone wanted it. Towns for display at a park, preservation groups, etc etc with no takers. Finally the Danbary RR museum said yes but it was to late as the last of NH steamers were already scrap metal.

Unlike the Pennsy who had the foresight to preserve at least one example of most of their classes of steam, Al Pearlman made sure they were scrapped. He hated them with a passion because they cost him money. He ordered every one left on the NYC property scrapped. Sad....

Gandy

As with most old things.... no one thinks to preserve the old "junk" until it gets REALLY old :-)

No point crying over spilled milk, as the old saying goes. It's always easy, in retrospect, to say that "they should have done this...."

quote:

Originally posted by Allan Miller:
No point crying over spilled milk, as the old saying goes. It's always easy, in retrospect, to say that "they should have done this...."

Also, I would recommend folks to join a preservation group or railroad museum just to see how "easy" it is to save a locomotive or rolling stock from the torch.

Rusty

Here's the real deal on NYCS. Anyone, individual or group could have
purchased a Hudson from the Central for Approximately $5K back in '57.
Perlman never gave such an order to scrap every steamer on the property
or the T&P would have never gotten #3001. He DID insist that the Central
get paid, and that no steam, or anything else, would just be given away.
A lot of tales about Central steam, especially towards the end are a
bunch of urban myths, repeated so often that eveyone takes 'em for
gospel! And yes, we the "fan base" were the issue then, and still are
today...whether we like it or not! Don't even get me started on the
New Haven....Not ONE original steamer OR electric! Can you believe it!

quote:

Originally posted by jaygee:
Here's the real deal on NYCS. Anyone, individual or group could have
purchased a Hudson from the Central for Approximately $5K back in '57.

5000 bucks was a lot of money back in 1957... I don't think my dad made that much a year back then.

Rusty

I seem to remember hearing a story that there was the intention to save one Hudson, however by some mistake or confusion, a Mohawk was preserved instead. I'm not sure whether the story revolved around 2933 or 3001. Can anyone remember where I might have heard or read this?

I had heard the story, more than once, that Nelson Blount, the founder of Steamtown up in Vermont, contacted Perlman to purchase one Niagara and one Hudson for preservation at his museum. Nelson Blount was an owner of Ocean Spray products, the cranberry company, and had sufficient funds available to cover the purchase price at contemporary scrap prices. Perlman was not receptive to this sale and refused. Blount was supposed to have told Perlman that if he wasn't allowed to purchase those engines, he would never ship a load of Ocean Spray products on the New York Central again. And, from what I was told, he never did. Instead he instructed his traffic managers to ship on any other railroad except an NYC line even though it resulted in much longer trips at times.

I'd really like to hear from someone who knows if this story was true or not. If so, it would certainly be an example of stubborn business tycoons locking horns with each other.

Paul Fischer

quote:

Originally posted by fisch330:
Nelson Blount was an owner of Ocean Spray products, the cranberry company,......

Paul Fischer

I think that is just a story. The Ocean Spray Co was and is a Cooperative with farmer/owners, like True Value,Ace, or TrustWorthy Hardware. He could have been an owner but not THE owner.

Well it's not true as Nelson Blount never owned Ocean Spray as he was into Seafood and owned the Blount Seafood Corporation.

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer:
I know of only two large NYC locomotives that survived:

L2d Mohawk 2933 in St.Louis and L3a Mohawk 3001 in Elkhart,IN.

2933 is still a beautiful machine.

Ricky

Large being the operative word. There is an 0-6-0 parked between the Utica, NY Amtrak station and the mainline. It would be cool if someone modeled it as they had a distinctive cab not usually seen on other 0-6-0s.

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by superwarp1:
Well it's not true as Nelson Blount never owned Ocean Spray as he was into Seafood and owned the Blount Seafood Corporation.

CORRECT!!! In fact, the Blount family STILL OWNS the "Blount Seafood Corp.".

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer:
I know of only two large NYC locomotives that survived:

L2d Mohawk 2933 in St.Louis and L3a Mohawk 3001 in Elkhart,IN.

2933 is still a beautiful machine.

Ricky

Large being the operative word. There is an 0-6-0 parked between the Utica, NY Amtrak station and the mainline. It would be cool if someone modeled it as they had a distinctive cab not usually seen on other 0-6-0s.

Pete

.
Also depending on age. There of course is the 999 in Chicago and a 4-6-0 abandoned on an island in Maine.

Don't know how many of you read down through the rest of that NYC newspaper, but there was a small piece that noted their poor financial performance. The article states that the NYC had to earn $1,845 of revenue to generate $1 of profit. I'd surmise that, in a nut shell, is why next to none of their steam locomotives survived. They were desperate for cash.

Curt

Eisenhower, in his push for an Interstate Highway System, had congress pay for it by raising taxes, especially on the railroads. In effect, the Interstates and trucking put the railroads out of business, and the railroads were made to pay for their own death.

The dire straights that the railroads found themselves in back in the 50's and 60's had them scavaging and liquidating anything they could to keep themselves afloat. Saving a steam locomotive would have been low on the list of priorities in an era that saw the destruction of Pennsylvania Station, and nearly the destruction of Grand Central Terminal, for the same reasons. In fact, part of Grand Central was destroyed to make way for the towering Pan Am Buiding in 1960.

Perlman seemed to be a very bitter man as a result of what the government did to the NYC and the other railroads. He even went on TV at one point in the mid 50's in a commercial message to plead the case of the railroads to the American People, but to no avail.

It was indeed amazing that the Pennsylvania RR saved so many steam locomotives. One might wonder about the choices that had to be made to do so.

Someone above mentioned the Pennsylvania's preservation efforts. Better than the Central's, for sure,
but still not as good as it should have been. The really interesting and impressive steamers - T1, Q1, Q2, S1, S2 - were not preserved.
True, only one S1 and S2 were ever built (all the more reason...), but there were plenty of T1's and
Q2's around. More Duplexes and fewer GG1's would have been great. I do love the E44 Brick.

The lack of a NYC Hudson, Niagara, H10 Mikado or Berkshire (B&A or P&LE) is still a hole in this hobby that cannot be filled.
It's a permanent wound. "Spilled milk" yes, but spilled milk usually sours. Heck, the Tennessee, Alabama & Georgia bought two ex-B&A Berks
(each with an ex-Hudson tender) and ran them a couple of years before dieselization. Second chance...but, scrapped.
They did outlive all the other B&A Berks, though. So the last B&A Berks ran in Alabama. Huh.

That the 999 survives (I've seen it) is wonderful; next to the "General", I suppose that it is the most famous
19th Century US loco. Likewise wonderful is that two NYC S-class electrics survive (but no P2, alas).

I do wish that the "999" was presented in its "as retired" livery and number, with a large poster showing
it as-built. The ESE scheme on that much-changed loco actually looks sad and fake, somewhat like a 65-year-old
in Hollywood who has had way too much "work done".

European/British preservation has been generally excellent, of course. The culture there is far less "throw-away",
and preservationists haven't had to struggle with private corporate mentality. The Old World is wrong about many, many things,
but not regarding preservation in general.

quote:

Originally posted by D500:
European/British preservation has been generally excellent, of course. The culture there is far less "throw-away",
and preservationists haven't had to struggle with private corporate mentality. The Old World is wrong about many, many things,
but not regarding preservation in general.

I think you'll find the reasons there are so many British steam locomotives preserved is because 1) British steam was retired later than in the US, 2) the locomotives were probably stored more for the metals potentially being used for "raw material" in case Britain was cut off during a war.

Rusty

quote:

Originally posted by D500:
Someone above mentioned the Pennsylvania's preservation efforts. Better than the Central's, for sure,...

European/British preservation has been generally excellent, of coursel.

.

I would include the B&O on the list of "good preservers". C&0 did ok as well.

quote:

Originally posted by TheGandyDancer:
Unlike the Pennsy who had the foresight to preserve at least one example of most of their classes of steam, Al Pearlman made sure they were scrapped. He hated them with a passion because they cost him money. He ordered every one left on the NYC property scrapped. Sad....

Gandy

And anyone who thinks otherwise has an agenda. my sources were "there"

quote:

The dire straights that the railroads found themselves in back in the 50's and 60's had them scavaging and liquidating anything they could to keep themselves afloat. Saving a steam locomotive would have been low on the list of priorities

Seems the NYC was desperate for money.
Anyone know in 1950 dollars and in todays dollars what a Hudson would have been worth as scrap?
Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer:
At least two NYC modern steam locomotives and two others exist. NO mainline Missouri Pacific steam locomotives were saved.

The Hudson was ICONIC. And modeled extensively into the 21st century. Name me a MP Steamer that was.

Spilled Milk. Spilled milk does NOT spoil as thought earlier. It's cleaned up, waiting for the next spill.

quote:

Originally posted by JC642:

quote:

The dire straights that the railroads found themselves in back in the 50's and 60's had them scavaging and liquidating anything they could to keep themselves afloat. Saving a steam locomotive would have been low on the list of priorities

Seems the NYC was desperate for money.
Anyone know in 1950 dollars and in todays dollars what a Hudson would have been worth as scrap?
Joe

Money WAS offered and REFUSED.

Money WAS offered, and accepted...by Luria Bros. and Republic, and General
Steel-Granite City. IF Central management turned down an offer, it was
either too low, or there were personal factors involved. Case in point
NYCS 3001...or mebby Big Al didn't show up at Park Ave. that day.

The Hudson was iconic BECAUSE it was modeled, not the other way around.

The Dreyfuss version was pretty well publicized and having the loco pull the 20th Century Limited may have had something to do with it's status as icon, especially outside of the narrow word of toy trains.

quote:

Originally posted by palallin:
The Hudson was iconic BECAUSE it was modeled, not the other way around.

The fact that they ran through and between some of the most highly populated areas of the US may have had more to do with it's iconic status more than the models.

quote:

Originally posted by jaygee:
Money WAS offered, and accepted...by Luria Bros. and Republic, and General
Steel-Granite City. IF Central management turned down an offer, it was
either too low, or there were personal factors involved. Case in point
NYCS 3001...or mebby Big Al didn't show up at Park Ave. that day.

3001 escaped by being carried on the books as an ice melter. ditto for 2933. 2933 and 999 were stored in Dewitt diesel house until the mid 60s, by then the public outcry would have resulted in more bad publicity for NYC which had nothing but bad news to report for many years at that point.

Isn't there one on the cover of the latest Van Halen album?

quote:

The Hudson was iconic BECAUSE it was modeled, not the other way around.

Many locomotives have been modeled, few are iconic. I don't see how the above statement makes sense, considering the fact that the iconic Lionel 700e was introduced 10 years after the Hudson achieved fame as the power on the famous 20th Century Ltd, reducing travel time between NY and Chicago to 16 hours.

Dot those who model not tend to see the world through the models?

"Famous" is too strong a word for any lcomotive type to the general public. To the vast majority of people, a locomotive was a choo-choo. Certainly NYC fans see the world differently, but RR fnas of ALL types are a small portion of a poulation who saw womething big and black and iron and knew nothing else except that it moved a train.

How many people--what percentage of the flying public--today can identify the airliner they are flying on?

I used famous in reference to The 20th Century Limited, not the Hudson. Just like one could call The Orient Express famous.

Let's face it, lots of priceless railroad buildings and equipment was lost in the 50's and 60's. Many short sighted decisions were made in regard to historic preservation. That can't be changed. However there are organizations that are working hard to preserve railroad artifacts both large and small. Join one of these organizations, get involved, contribute, and help preserve what is left.

To piggyback on Chuck's comments above, the Dreyfuss Hudson has become one of the symbols of the Art Deco era. I've seen posters with a Dreyfuss Hudson theme hanging as wall art in hotel restaurants and office buildings. In fact, when I think Art Deco, I think of the Cord automobile, the Chrysler Building in NYC and the Dreyfuss Hudson (and I'm a PRR guy!).

Curt

The Dreyfuss is a small subset of NYC Hudsons.  Further, how many people who recognize is as a symbol of Art Deco have even the slightest clue what it is besides knowing it is a train?  "4-6-4 Hudson? Whose phone number is that?"

 

To the vast majority of the world, any train engine is just a train engine--or just a train, since the distinction between a train and the engine is lost on most of them.  Sure, more will recognize "20th Century limited," but not many more these days, and few will have any idea just exactly what that was.

 

The NCY J classes are icons to some railfans and some model railroaders (not all by any means); nobody else.  Just ask the folks where you work.  As for the model RRers, whole bunches of them have no affection for or even recognition of the NYC engines.  Ask most Garden RR folks or NG fans.  Ask the N scalers--do they even have one?  Lionel's model put the engine in the limelight, and the chase after it and its progeny are what keep it there, mostly for 3-railers.

 

I have a good friend who grew up around Elkhart--he's a Hudson fan.  Only one or two of the other guys in our club would recognize one if you showed them a pic with label.

 

Face it, guys:  we're odd balls, and Hudson fans are only a subset of the odd balls