Where to begin? At the beginning?

Scrapiron Scher posted:

OK, first of all, I just left the thread I started several weeks ago entitled, "Where to buy 14 gauge wire?" I should have known better than to start that way without explaining what the h*ll I am trying to do. I will start at the beginning as that seems a good place to start. I got a fantastic e-mail from Chris Ambrosini (thanks Chris) which prompted this thread. Many thanks, in advance, to any and all who contribute to it. I do NOT expect anyone, nor do I ask anyone, to answer and/or respond to all of my questions/concerns. I realize how much I am asking and writing about here. Feel free to suggest anything, no matter how small, or just smile and pray for me. 

I am starting my last layout. I will soon be 68 years old, bad hip and all . . . . surgery upcoming, and I hope it will be my best ever. My Left hip was replaced 2008, not a major thing.   I've hiked the Grand Canyon (3) times since hip surgery.  Best wishes, there is a lot remaining at 68.   Ginny and I loved the Munoz Lines and I have decided to let it all hang out, as the saying goes, and do whatever it takes to make this next Munoz Lines the absolute best layout I can build. The problem is, as you all know by now, I am very good at some parts of layout building and very bad at a critical piece, that being electricity. I made some terrible mistakes on the first layout and if it was not for my friends John Gaughan, Marty Fitzhenry and Barry Broskowitz, no trains would ever have run. Big thanks to all of them.

Perhaps this thread will help me generate, and then consolidate, ideas for how to approach not only the selection of wire, but how to begin the various phases of wiring everything.

1)   a) I want to wire the layout for the best control possible of BOTH Legacy and DCS.                                                               b) I want to control all locos and switches from remotes. I prefer to use the DCS system to control all switches.                 I will NEVER use an IPad or Iphone ever. That's a promise.                                                                                                   c) Although I will use remotes to control switches, I will consider a panel (s) where I can duplicate the switch                     control with push buttons.

2) The layout will be approximately 30 x 20 with double decks. The lower deck will feature two main lines and I have to figure out how many separate electrical zones (districts?) yes? I would like each main line to be electrically separate although any loco should be able to switch to either track. I guess I will separate each of the main lines from the other electrically at the crossover switches from one to the other. 

3) Upper deck will also have two main lines plus four or five staging/yard tracks and a large steam yard featuring a large turntable and 6-8 tracks off of the turntable. One again, I have to figure out () how many separate electrical districts to use.

4) I need to have ALL sidings and yard tracks with on/off capability. I had too many runaways and I am terrfied of them. Best switches to use to turn off sidings? ()

5) I would like to install some signals and, at crossings, have crossbucks/flashers, etc.

6) I will have many structures and various misc. items to light. Best wire? gauge?

7) One of my main goals is to have neat wiring. I need to learn a system. MikeCT . . . . I tried to e-mail you but it bounced back. I love your wiring.  Thompsonelectric@gmail.com.   Planned trip north to Boston Sept 22??23.  I'm operating a paint brush for a week or so, could stop and give you a few pointers.

8) Sorry for the tome here, I would like to have a system for approaching all of this. For example, I wire the main lines first using 14 gauge for the bus and 16 gauge for drops? Then I wire each siding/staging/turntable track one at a time, yes? Then, I can run smaller gauge wire for signals and flashers? Lastly, small gauge wire for structures, I guess.

9) Does everyone use different colors for each different type of use? Not a bad idea, you can identify wires with colored electrical tape, or numbers.  Purchase of one or two rolls of wire (colors/power and common) v.s. a lot of different colored rolls.  Each different track circuit a different number??    Large cables?   Worked well for me, switch control wiring and accessories.

SO many thanks to one and all for pitching in. I will check this thread daily to copy suggestions and to ask questions. If it was not for all of you on the Forum, I would still be back in the model railroading stone age. That, I can say with assurance. 

Eliot "Scrapiron" Scher

Again, best wishes,

Mike CT.

 

Eliot, good luck with the new layout build.  I feel sure it will be even more stunning than your last layout.

I find that color coding the wires is essential for maintenance of the layout and trouble shooting issues.  The color code I use are:

Neutral:  White and or black.  I Reserve both colors her due to the fact that so many items that come prewired using one or the other.  All neutrals from all transformers are tied together.

Hot wire:   Red

Signals:    Orange

Lighting:  Yellow

Operating accessories:  Blue and gray - I use two colors here because I run a buss feed for accessories usig

                                          about 10 volts on one color and around 14 volts on the other .

Not only are the buss wires these colors but the wires going through the layout to be wired use the correct color for their function.  (example:  wires from a lighted building will be yellow and white)

Where I can, which is most locations, I twist the wires together ( example: lighting for a structure will consist of white and yellow wire twisted together)  I accomplish this clamping one end of the two wires in pliers or a vise if longer and the other ends are chucked into a drill and twisted.  This makes things look much neater under the layout.

Switch machines:     20 gauge four conductor jacketed telephone wire

Other than the switch machines, I do not use anything smaller than 18 gauge wire.  I worked several summers as an electricians helper in construction and was appalled when started building layouts how much time it took to wire things with really small wires (like signals and such).  I then realized it was because the wires were too small for real world applications.  I now solder longer 18 gauge wires on signals and building / street lighting so when I drop wires through the table, they are easy to connect to relays or buss wires.  I use suitcase (3M) insulation displacement connectors where I can due to was of use and the ablaut to connect smaller gauge wire to larger buss.  It is important here to use the correct connector for the wire sizes being used!  ( I know there are those who dislike the suitcase connectors and call them unreliable but I have installed about 800 to 1000 over the last ten years, many in humid NC basements with no failures.)

I use plastic conduit straps of different sizes (3/4 inch up to 2 inch) to rout the wires.  Have tried drilling holes and found the fishing of wire to be a real pain.  With the plastic conduit strap, putting one screw in the bottom hole and no fastener in the upper, one can run wires by just laying them under the layout and the laying the wire in the strap by springing the upper side out and laying wire in strap.

Wishing you all the best on your new build,

Don

With help like Marty and Barry you are in good hands. I would wire for DCS as it seems to be the most particular system for wiring requirements. I would follow the 'star type' wiring recommendations in Barry's book as closely as you can. I would also recommend using the MTH terminal blocks, they work very well for DCS's wiring requirements. They come in 12 or 24 terminal sizes and cost a little more than regular terminal blocks, but are made for DCS wiring (different than the standard type terminal blocks purchased elsewhere) and they make a nice easy and neat job too. 

As I said in the other wire thread, I like OGR's wire and used it on my layout (which is much smaller than yours) for all the track power. I also used the MTH terminal blocks. I used #14 to the MTH terminal blocks and then #16 to the track blocks. I added Legacy by connecting the signal wire to the TIU's common outputs. Although mine is smaller it works great and I have had no problems with DCS or Legacy in the 2 years since it became operational.

From what little I know, I would isolate the main loops as you said in your post. Install switches for all your sidings and spurs so you can park an engine, turn it off and not have the clock running all the time. Follow Barry's book with no more than 10-12 track sections per block with the power feeds near the center of the blocks. And all the other advice he has in there. I think the track blocks are a major item that helped my permanent layout. Before my more permanent layout, some of my small temporary layouts (4'x8' or less) had several DCS problems.

After looking for other #20-#22 stranded, multi conductor wire for switches and accessories I ended up using #18 thermostat wire from Home depot. It's easy to find and readily available in multiple conductors. Home Depot and Lowes have 2, 3, 5, 7 conductor thermostat wire. I forget exactly what all they had, they may even have a couple more than that? It is good copper wire and reasonably priced compared to some of the other multi conductor wire I looked at.

In addition to the colored tape to label the wires you can also get numbered labels, labels you can write on or they also have label machines especially for wire labels. With the blank tags or the label maker you can put more descriptive information on your wire tags. There are other methods of tagging and marking things as well. I used the plastic, two hole conduit straps that DGJones mentioned above, using only one screw so more wire could be easily added to them which was a tip posted here by Rich from Korber if I remember correctly.

I used Atlas track and switches which I have been pleased with as well. In Ingeniero No1 (Alex's) build thread, he devised and posted a great way of connecting his drops to Atlas track. He even used OGR wire too, just as I was planning to do. I copied his method and have also been really pleased with that. I was really happy I found that before wiring my layout. He describes everything needed in his build thread, to duplicate his method including drill bit and screw size needed. It has worked very well for me and it's very easy to rearrange things is you ever want to change something. I don't think this would work on tubular track (thin hollow rails) though, probably only works on solid rail track and maybe only Atlas?

If you could post a track plan I imagine some of the more knowledgeable folks here would help mark up the plan with locations of track isolation points to create all your blocks. I would offer to help, but I don't consider myself one of the more knowledgeable here, that would be folks like Marty and Barry that you mentioned above that helped you before. Not to miss anyone here, there are many more very knowledgeable folks here too, as you probably already know.

in regards to DCS wiring I would wire one entire loop of track and then run an engine on it and when that one is working flawlessly then move onto the next loop of track. troubleshooting one loop at a time so much easier to fix.

just asking if you might have enough room for a helix and create your layout somewhat like Big Boys Dream Nightmare layout but on a smaller scale? you might be able to do more?

Hi Elliott; I sent some basic guideline wiring and wire selection stuff to your email offline. It may be useful for your new project.

Rod

All I can offer is make sure you are firm on following proper colors!  Do not deviate.

Even with yard leads and sidings, use a separate hot wire color for blocks... and label it on a sheet.

I even separated my Accessory grounds to a unique color. You won't be sorry when you are trying to pin point problems or add features to the layout.

I would plan what signal system you are going to use as well, and what wiring that will require.

I would not rule out WiFi controlled devises for you layout. Plan for them  - the future is here and will be a feature well welcomed when guest come to operate on your layout.

Scrapiron Scher posted:

OK, first of all, I just left the thread I started several weeks ago entitled, "Where to buy 14 gauge wire?" I should have known better than to start that way without explaining what the h*ll I am trying to do. I will start at the beginning as that seems a good place to start. I got a fantastic e-mail from Chris Ambrosini (thanks Chris) which prompted this thread. Many thanks, in advance, to any and all who contribute to it. I do NOT expect anyone, nor do I ask anyone, to answer and/or respond to all of my questions/concerns. I realize how much I am asking and writing about here. Feel free to suggest anything, no matter how small, or just smile and pray for me. 

I am starting my last layout. I will soon be 68 years old, bad hip and all . . . . surgery upcoming, and I hope it will be my best ever. Ginny and I loved the Munoz Lines and I have decided to let it all hang out, as the saying goes, and do whatever it takes to make this next Munoz Lines the absolute best layout I can build. The problem is, as you all know by now, I am very good at some parts of layout building and very bad at a critical piece, that being electricity. I made some terrible mistakes on the first layout and if it was not for my friends John Gaughan, Marty Fitzhenry and Barry Broskowitz, no trains would ever have run. Big thanks to all of them.

Perhaps this thread will help me generate, and then consolidate, ideas for how to approach not only the selection of wire, but how to begin the various phases of wiring everything.

1)   a) I want to wire the layout for the best control possible of BOTH Legacy and DCS.                                                               b) I want to control all locos and switches from remotes. I prefer to use the DCS system to control all switches.                 I will NEVER use an IPad or Iphone ever. That's a promise.                                                                                                   c) Although I will use remotes to control switches, I will consider a panel (s) where I can duplicate the switch                     control with push buttons.

2) The layout will be approximately 30 x 20 with double decks. The lower deck will feature two main lines and I have to figure out how many separate electrical zones (districts?) yes? I would like each main line to be electrically separate although any loco should be able to switch to either track. I guess I will separate each of the main lines from the other electrically at the crossover switches from one to the other. 

3) Upper deck will also have two main lines plus four or five staging/yard tracks and a large steam yard featuring a large turntable and 6-8 tracks off of the turntable. One again, I have to figure out () how many separate electrical districts to use.

4) I need to have ALL sidings and yard tracks with on/off capability. I had too many runaways and I am terrfied of them. Best switches to use to turn off sidings? ()

5) I would like to install some signals and, at crossings, have crossbucks/flashers, etc.

6) I will have many structures and various misc. items to light. Best wire? gauge?

7) One of my main goals is to have neat wiring. I need to learn a system. MikeCT . . . . I tried to e-mail you but it bounced back. I love your wiring.

8) Sorry for the tome here, I would like to have a system for approaching all of this. For example, I wire the main lines first using 14 gauge for the bus and 16 gauge for drops? Then I wire each siding/staging/turntable track one at a time, yes? Then, I can run smaller gauge wire for signals and flashers? Lastly, small gauge wire for structures, I guess.

9) Does everyone use different colors for each different type of use? Large cables?

SO many thanks to one and all for pitching in. I will check this thread daily to copy suggestions and to ask questions. If it was not for all of you on the Forum, I would still be back in the model railroading stone age. That, I can say with assurance. 

Eliot "Scrapiron" Scher

Good luck on your next adventure, I can tell you as for a signal system  and crossing gates, If you are adding just a few and not going all prototypical "like what I am working with " then go with the atlas o signal system I have seen a lot of success with it, If you plan to go all prototypical then you have to decide on what railroad you want to do then that can take time and can be a long endeavor, Other than that you are thinking of the things you did wrong on your past layout and do not want to repeat, I feel the same way but like me we have the same problem we are never satisfied if you can keep that under control then you are on your way, Good luck and as always don't forget to post pics  

J Daddy posted:

 

I would not rule out WiFi controlled devises for you layout. Plan for them  - the future is here and will be a feature well welcomed when guest come to operate on your layout.

 

In addition to J Daddy's other good advice that I left out, I definitely think this is something to plan on for the future and not rule out. It might seem like something you will never, ever use, but it is a neat feature and is becoming more popular all the time. Also as he says it's great for guests that come to visit. It appears that many folks that had doubts about this system up front have become hooked after trying the wifi apps.

You never know when this will become the next 'gotta have it' feature. 

Thanks to all of you who have contributed and continue to contribute to my learning curve on electricity !!

Scrapiron Scher posted:

 

I am starting my last layout. I will soon be 68 years old, bad hip and all . . . . surgery upcoming, and I hope it will be my best ever. Eliot "Scrapiron" Scher

Off topic a little, but by some standards 68 is young-ish. Best layout - YES! Last, well maybe - but think positive my friend!!!!

Scrapiron Scher posted:

OK, first of all, I just left the thread I started several weeks ago entitled, "Where to buy 14 gauge wire?" I should have known better than to start that way without explaining what the h*ll I am trying to do. I will start at the beginning as that seems a good place to start. I got a fantastic e-mail from Chris Ambrosini (thanks Chris) which prompted this thread. Many thanks, in advance, to any and all who contribute to it. I do NOT expect anyone, nor do I ask anyone, to answer and/or respond to all of my questions/concerns. I realize how much I am asking and writing about here. Feel free to suggest anything, no matter how small, or just smile and pray for me. 

I am starting my last layout. I will soon be 68 years old, bad hip and all . . . . surgery upcoming, and I hope it will be my best ever. Ginny and I loved the Munoz Lines and I have decided to let it all hang out, as the saying goes, and do whatever it takes to make this next Munoz Lines the absolute best layout I can build. The problem is, as you all know by now, I am very good at some parts of layout building and very bad at a critical piece, that being electricity. I made some terrible mistakes on the first layout and if it was not for my friends John Gaughan, Marty Fitzhenry and Barry Broskowitz, no trains would ever have run. Big thanks to all of them.

Perhaps this thread will help me generate, and then consolidate, ideas for how to approach not only the selection of wire, but how to begin the various phases of wiring everything.

1)   a) I want to wire the layout for the best control possible of BOTH Legacy and DCS.                                                               b) I want to control all locos and switches from remotes. I prefer to use the DCS system to control all switches.                 I will NEVER use an IPad or Iphone ever. That's a promise.                                                                                                   c) Although I will use remotes to control switches, I will consider a panel (s) where I can duplicate the switch                     control with push buttons.

2) The layout will be approximately 30 x 20 with double decks. The lower deck will feature two main lines and I have to figure out how many separate electrical zones (districts?) yes? I would like each main line to be electrically separate although any loco should be able to switch to either track. I guess I will separate each of the main lines from the other electrically at the crossover switches from one to the other. 

3) Upper deck will also have two main lines plus four or five staging/yard tracks and a large steam yard featuring a large turntable and 6-8 tracks off of the turntable. One again, I have to figure out () how many separate electrical districts to use. Best I can say here is one power district per mainline loop - makes it much easier to trouble shoot electrical problems.

4) I need to have ALL sidings and yard tracks with on/off capability. I had too many runaways and I am terrfied of them. Best switches to use to turn off sidings? () Eliot - I use 1 amp SPDT toggle switches - overkill but there will never be a problem.

5) I would like to install some signals and, at crossings, have crossbucks/flashers, etc. Mistake I made - I bought from this company then that company then a third company all with their own wiring schemes.  Best advice here choose one system and stick with it. Of all the signal systems I have tried I believe I like Z-Stuff the best. If you are using Z-Stuff switch motors then this system all that much easier to work with.  

6. I will have many structures and various misc. items to light. Best wire? gauge?.  There are as many pinions as there wire sizes. When  I add lights the wires they come with are 28 gauge. I solder 28 gauge adder wire to get below the table. From there I go to 18-20 gauge if I need to run further to a terminal board. Power / ground wire to the terminals are 16-18 gauge. 

7. One of my main goals is to have neat wiring. I need to learn a system. MikeCT . . . . I tried to e-mail you but it bounced 6)back. I love your wiring.

8) Sorry for the tome here, I would like to have a system for approaching all of this. For example, I wire the main lines first using 14 gauge for the bus and 16 gauge for drops? Then I wire each siding/staging/turntable track one at a time, yes? Then, I can run smaller gauge wire for signals and flashers? Lastly, small gauge wire for structures, I guess.

9) Does everyone use different colors for each different type of use? Large cables?

SO many thanks to one and all for pitching in. I will check this thread daily to copy suggestions and to ask questions. If it was not for all of you on the Forum, I would still be back in the model railroading stone age. That, I can say with assurance. 

Eliot "Scrapiron" Scher