Why aren't all dual engine locos just wired in series to begin with???

Because series winding is not a panacea.  It gives you lower speed starting, but greatly the pulling power.  Also, with two motors in series, if one truck loses traction and spins, the other motor loses most of it's torque and stops.

Also note Lionel set the precedence in the postwar years with fast trains in their advertising - from catalog pics to movie scenes and TV shows. When Weaver models debuted its anticipated 3 rail scale RS3 with the shaft drive, many people complained it was too slow while reviews stated it had close to scale speed. Go figura?

...with two motors in series, if one truck loses traction and spins, the other motor loses most of it's torque and stops.

https://ogrforum.com/...8#149239177248109108

@ADCX Rob posted:

https://ogrforum.com/...8#149239177248109108

The only problem is, the manufacturers would doubtless just change the wiring and leave it at that.

OK, thanks for those explanations.

Mannyrock

I’m no electronic expert like gunrunnerjohn and some of you. But I use only Lionel TMCC and Legacy engines. So this has never been an issue for me. My smaller, 88 sq. ft. layout is flat with no grades, so I get all of the speed and pulling power I need out of one engine.

I have an F7 that will pull 2 dummy units and 7 aluminum passenger cars without a whimper. In fact, I have to be mindful of its speed settings on the outer mainline, or it would go right off the layout.

It seems that the majority of motive power in O scale nowadays is command control. So the issue of needing to wire conventional control engines in series is less of a priority. However, for those few operators who still run conventional and have long trains to pull over grades, I guess I can see where that may be an issue. 🤔

@ADCX Rob posted:

https://ogrforum.com/...8#149239177248109108

Rob, you always amaze me how you come up with links to related articles or threads time and time again.  a special talent and need here,

so, THANKS!

walt

@Yellowstone Special posted:

It seems that the majority of motive power in O scale nowadays is command control. So the issue of needing to wire conventional control engines in series is less of a priority. However, for those few operators who still run conventional and have long trains to pull over grades, I guess I can see where that may be an issue. 🤔

Au contraire mon ami.  If you've followed the forum over the last several years this topic has come up many, many, many times.

You're not suggesting that conventional operators should abandon their favorite mode of operation in order to fix the problem, are you?

If so, you're in for a big surprise.  I suggest covering your ears now.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Au contraire mon ami.  If you've followed the forum over the last several years this topic has come up many, many, many times.

You're not suggesting that conventional operators should abandon their favorite mode of operation in order to fix the problem, are you?

If so, you're in for a big surprise.  I suggest covering your ears now.

Mike

Easy Mike, mellow out. I didn’t think I’d suggested anything, other than those operators who are still running conventional, will probably have to continue wiring their engines to run in series themselves.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

It seems that the majority of motive power in O scale nowadays is command control. So the issue of needing to wire conventional control engines in series is less of a priority. However, for those few operators who still run conventional and have long trains to pull over grades, I guess I can see where that may be an issue. 🤔

No argument that just about all motive power currently being manufactured has some sort of digital control system. But that doesn't take into consideration the thousands upon thousands of engines made over the previous decades that were conventionally powered. Even during recent times like the 1990's, conventional locomotives were being made in with single production runs in the thousands, NOT the dozens or hundreds, as it currently is.

If you notice, most of the high end control type locomotives from Lionel are cataloged in 6, 7 or 8 road names. Aside from pleasing potential customers, it is also an attempt to assure that they can reach the minimal production numbers: 300 is the number frequently spoken of by manufacturers, though some special runs are even smaller. Now compare that to the K-Line KCC MP-15, which by July of that year had already sold over 20,000 and counting. I can tell you there has been NO single command control engine from anyone that has come even close to a production run of 20,000 plus.

One of the toughest engines to find over the past few years is the RMT Bang S-4. A conventional engine that very seldom comes up for sale, so somebody (plural) is keeping them and happily running them. Somewhere along the way, I read where Walter of RMT said that there were over 20,000 BEEP's produced... another conventional engine. Granted, you can upgrade any conventional loco to a control platform, but given the given the added expense and/or the general unavailability of parts, I doubt the majority of the engines are being converted by their current owners.

SO, all that to say I think there are FAR MORE conventional operators out there than the recent postings of this forum would lead you to believe.

I think a lot of us conventional operators are just silent or infrequent contributors on this forum. Speaking for myself, I haven't been saying much here lately. I don't have any problems to post about, despite the occasional references made on this forum about the sorts of trains that I buy as being "junk." No shelf queens on my layout. My starter set variety engines all work as they always have, most of which are decades old... with plastic gears no less. Everything on my layout is fine, no grumbles or complaints.

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Now going to Manny's original post, I think Gunrunnerjohn's first post hinted at the issue. Some people were buying these locos for layouts for grades. Some for flat and level layouts. Some were buying them to pull postwar types of rolling stock, and others for rolling stock with fast angle wheels. Some wanted to run long trains (maybe longer than should be). Others wanted to do switching with shorter trains.

So I think it was an issue of trying to please a variety of operators with a multitude of differing expectations with one single product.

Lionel recommended a 10-car limit with their 4-4-2 starter set steam engines. Will the loco pull more than that? Sure will! But with the increased voltage to the track, you'll probably shorten the life of the smoke unit.

When the train magazines at the time, reviewed these sorts of dual can motored engines, they often made highlight of how many cars you could pull in a train. The K-Line S-2 locomotives were called "stump pullers" in one review. Which is fine except if you want to run the engine slowly to do some switching. Because K-Line used a lower voltage motor than that used with similar Lionel products, you often read the complaint about "jack rabbit" starts with K-Line starter set diesels. That coupled with the 6 volt minimum voltage to the track put out by the vast majority of postwar transformers, which the majority of operators were using.

For me, the Lionel 1033 is the best transformer ever made for running these sorts of trains. With the choice of the A-U or B-U posts, I can slowly run anything and everything. But I should also note, I don't use the secondary posts - which change depending on whether you're utilizing A-U or B-U. All my trackside accessories are powered from separate sources.

But I try to work with what I have, and make the most out of it, given whatever perceived limitations are inherent. Trying to make everyone happy with one single product never has been easy, and that includes our train hobby*.

*And BTW, I'm not referring to glaring quality issues or screw-ups in delivered products... that's another issue entirely.

Well-stated, Brian. Maybe I should have clarified in my post that over the past 20 years or so, the majority of locomotives produced appear to be command control.

However, your post is persuasive in that it suggests there are a lot more conventional locos and operators out there than many of us realize. 👍

I think you see a different crowd here at OGR, many of us are really into the higher end stuff.  When you see the volume of older conventional stuff come into repair shops, you realize a lot of people still run conventional equipment.  Henning's can't keep wheels for pre-war stuff in stock, they sell thousands of them!  Obviously, there are a lot of people still running stuff conventionally, we just don't hear from them as much here.

A good, eye-opening point, John. 👍

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Easy Mike, mellow out. I didn’t think I’d suggested anything, other than those operators who are still running conventional, will probably have to continue wiring their engines to run in series themselves.

My response was intended to be mellow, not charged.

It was intended instead to be light, yet factual. (It was clear from your comments, in the post that I was commenting on, that you already understood the significance of the conventional operators.)

Sorry for the confusion.

Mike

      Well John, I believe that you don't hear as much from the conventional end because they aren't trying to struggle with the hinky TMCC, Legacy and Lionchief systems.  I am sure they are fantastic when they work, but apparently they can be a sea of annoying issues.   That's why I gave up on the idea of those.  And when those Legacy controllers are gone,  what then of those thousand dollar locos?

   Having to tinker with simple mechanical issues is one thing, but having to try to solve electrical component systems is beyond my tolerance level,  especially when they command such high prices.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

      Well John, I believe that you don't hear as much from the conventional end because they aren't trying to struggle with the hinky TMCC, Legacy and Lionchief systems.  I am sure they are fantastic when they work, but apparently they can be a sea of annoying issues.   That's why I gave up on the idea of those.  And when those Legacy controllers are gone,  what then of those thousand dollar locos?

   Having to tinker with simple mechanical issues is one thing, but having to try to solve electrical component systems is beyond my tolerance level,  especially when they command such high prices.

Mannyrock

There's a lot more tech issues with stuff you use everyday, phones, computers, etc.  I'm sure you know that the Legacy system is far from "gone", they've just changed their operating idea to WiFi and cell phones to run the trains.  However, I suspect I'll have enough remotes to tide me over for years.

As far as Legacy disappearing, that's not happening, and those thousand dollar locos run just fine in conventional mode.

Apparently, you didn't actually read my post, we see plenty of the conventional operators looking for repairs.

@Mannyrock posted:

 

   Having to tinker with simple mechanical issues is one thing, but having to try to solve electrical component systems is beyond my tolerance level,  especially when they command such high prices.

Mannyrock

Mannyrock,

It's not that black-and-white.  There are annoying issues everywhere, there always have been, and there always will be.

It's a good idea to keep things simple but even simple things can fail, and they do.

Conventional locomotives are more than just mechanical conveyances, because they're powered by electricity.  Tinkering with simple mechanical stuff is a good start, but you can, and should, take it farther.

Tinkering with simple electrical stuff is the next step up the ladder, followed by simple electronics.

Learning never stops.

Don't write off the electronics so early -- they're not that difficult.  The key is to keep things simple, just like you've done, wisely, with the mechanicals.

Mike

Thanks,  Good advice Mike!

Mannyrock

Thanks for the comment as always John, but I wasn't clear.  I meant that you don't hear as much on this Board from the conventional crowd.  I am sure your shop is overrun with them.  Hopefully, I'll only be looking for new wheels now and then instead of board repairs.  :-)

Mannyrock