Why is 163 block signal wired differently than dwarf signal or signal bridge

Have you looked at the wiring diagrams for each? That will probably help you understand.

Can you post them? Then we can go over them with you.

Arthur's right.

Also if you have the Lionel product numbers for the dwarf signal and signal bridge it would help us to help you.

Mike

I just looked at the diagram of the 163. It seems to be simplicity itself. Two lamps, red and green, and the recommended way to operate it is using the good old reliable 153C contactor.

When you say that you are using an insulated rail for operation, can you expand on that for us?  Are you using the rail to operate a relay, for instance? It is difficult to understand how using just an insulated rail would make the signal switch from green to red, and back again.

Here are the facts about the x53 series that I am aware of:  For reference, (and jogging my memory) the first one of the series was the 153. That was followed by an automatic signal, the 253, which added the "automatic train stop" feature found in the model 132 station.

Then Lionel went back to making a "manual" (non-train stop type) signal, and created two catalog numbers that are essentially equivalent, electrically and physically: The difference is that the 163 had a single target cover over the two lamps, and the 353 had the cover that displayed the two lamps individually. These signals, along with the 253,  were smaller and more scale-like than the 153 which, at twice the scale height for O-scale, was actually the right size for standard gauge and G-gauge (~ 1:24 scale)

The 450-541X (originally numbered 450-L) part of the 450 signal bridge has two lamps, and no switching. It relies upon the 153C contactor, just as the above-mentioned signals do.  I'm pretty sure that the 148 dwarf signal is just a short version of the 353, and electrically equivalent.

To my knowledge, non of these signals will work right out of the box with just an insulated rail for activation. So...how did you wire it?

.

<crickets>

Arthur: I am having trouble posting a video of the 163 in action using an insulated curve track.  If you like, message me and I will email it to you directly.  I agree with you that it makes no sense that an insulated control rail, while able to complete a circuit to energize a bulb, would also be able to turn off the other one.  But it does and I am not using a relay or any other electronics.  When I could not get the #2115 dwarf signal or # 12724 operating signal bridge to work similarly I did some research and it was confirmed that these will not work with insulated tracks but require the #153 contactor or an aftermarket relay.  The current model dwarf signal #12883 has different internals and can be used with an insulated track.  That accessory poses another issue which I will address in a future post.  If I can find an 8 year-old to help me I will upload video!

It's an illusion which occurs when a 163 is wired incorrectly. What he has done is hardwire the green light permanently "on". He has also wired the red bulb so it is operated by an insulated rail.

When the red bulb is activated, it almost completely drowns out the less bright green painted bulb, giving the appearance that the light switched from green to red. The success of this effect relies on the translucent lens which obscured which bulb(s) are really activated. It's not magic.

See videos below, both without, and with the signal head in place.

Greg: Your explanation made perfect sense and I was about to post a thank you for the information.  I decided to perform my own due diligence and test on my layout.   I removed the head and it shows the green light.  I then touched a wheel set to the control rail and the green light went out and the red light came on.  So, the mystery deepens...

I vaguely remember someone posting a circuit diagram that would allow an insulated track to control a 163 without using a relay. Does anyone else remember that and have the circuit?

Here is a diagram and link to the thread.

https://ogrforum.com/...6#152477234141356446

My remarks questioned whether JUST an insulated rail was being used.  I stand by my opinion that without any other components, the original description of the operation using ONLY an insulated rail was suspect. Now we know the rest of the story.

As we all know, if an automobile tail light assembly has a poor (or missing) ground, caused by rust, corrosion, a broken ground connection or the fact that you're driving a Peugeot with its infamous printed circuit wiring harness -- (I'm not kidding) -- when the brake light comes on, the tail light will go out. We can reproduce that effect with resistors in series with the red and green lamps.  That is the scheme shown in the above posts. Why didn't we think of this back in 1955? It would have made life easier (and more interesting).

Bob's right.  There's a hint on how it was done back in the day in this picture.  Although we're looking at the 153 instead of the 163 it's the same concept:

(Thanks to @stan2004 for posting it in the thread mentioned by @BigAl56 above.)

Some versions of the 153 have a resistor in the base.  These operate like the LED circuit pictured in @BigAl56's posting above and they will indeed work with an insulated track section and don't need a 153C.

Here's the secret when you have bulbs instead of LEDs: The red and green bulbs in the vintage 153 operate at different voltages.  Red is an 18 volt bulb (#1447), and Green is a 6.3 volt bulb.  Red has the resistor in series with it, here 12 Ohms, 3 Watts:

When no wheels complete the circuit in the isolated section (isolated rail "floating") the green bulb is lit with 6 volts across it (1/3 of 18, by the resistor divider 12/12/12).   When a set of wheels connects the Isolated Rail to Common the Red bulb is lit, powered through the 12 Ohm 3 Watt resistor to about 90% of its rated voltage.  Although it is slightly dimmer than normal, it is lit nonetheless, and Green is dark.

Is it a trick? No.

It's what I call Elegant Simplicity.  No relays.

Mike

That resistor in the original 153 is balanced in the return circuit. It does perform the unbalanced effect that we have been talking about.  I believe that the original 153's used lamps that were rated too low for the expected voltage that was suggested to be applied, but I can't prove that assertion, having never really researched the history of those first versions.

The giveaway is that Bob's video contains the unmistakable sound of a 151 semaphore activating at the same time you see the light change from green to red.

I just experimented with a 151 and 153 signal, and achieved the effect the Bob observed. He's got the two intertwined with coils/bulbs in series.

Good question, but no.  I originally wired the 163 at my workbench without any other accessories, and it worked as it does on the layout.

The resistor on the early 153's are due to the  shortage of 12 volt bulbs right after WW2. The auto industry was still using 6 volt bulbs as standard until around 1950. The 163 signal uses the obsolete 2 pin bulbs. Revised...what is the electrical buzzing coming from When the signal changes color? I swear I hear a relay.

Chuck: As noted by GregR in a previous post, the sound you hear is of a #151 semaphore signal that is wired with the #163.  GregR wondered if having them wired in concert may have contributed to the #163 operating the way it does but I replied that I originally wired and bench-tested the #163 by itself and it operated just like it does on the layout. 

Never really stopped to look at the 163 although I remember looking at one in a picture.