Wikipedia - Can't be wrong?

I know my LHS "Norms Trains" moving a lot of 2 rail...esp brass and premier motive and Atlas rolling stock.A pallet and 1/2 of Atlas rolling stock just arrived.Zephyr stuff i think.

Mike,

Thank you for the info.,it's VERY promising. I keep feeling like 2 rail is the modern day Titanic  after the iceburg hit & I'm fighting for life in the water,calling 911 & the message keeps coming back that the number has either been changed or is no longer in service.

On another subject you mentioned I could probably get a decent price for my PBL Foreground sound system 2,from S Scalers. I looked S Scale up,but my leads never took me to any sites to advertise it. Do you know of any? Any help you can give me,is as always, much appreciated.

Thanks again for everything.

Al Hummel

Yeah, but I would believe Wikipedia... It is not a reliable source of information. If your English professor tells you 99.9% of stuff on it is a lie, don't use it as a source

Tim,

   I find that the English professor's quip is stroked with a very broad brush that in itself would cause me to disregard his statement. Maybe the stuff is not peer reviewed, but I highly doubt that this prof is as broad-knowledged that would make him an expert in all fields. I would definitely double check any information, but to say 99.9% of the information is false is a lie also. You have to use some critical thinking.

Rick

quote:

Yeah, but I would believe Wikipedia... It is not a reliable source of information. If your English professor tells you 99.9% of stuff on it is a lie, don't use it as a source

Wikipedia is an OK source for goofing around on a model train board. I don't think 99.9% of the stuff is a lie, but there are inaccuracies. Professionally, I'd never cite Wikipedia as an information source, nor did I allow my team to do so. If someone cited Wikipedia in a communication to me, their information would be suspect.

Amen to that, but that doesn't fit in our knee jerk world of today.

Jerry

Wikipedia is a completely unreliable source of information. Futhermore it is monitored by individuals who have mental health issues - headspace-and-timing problems.   I added significant information to three railroad related sites based upon historical documentation  and the information was deleted by a loser who stated ("Too much information - this is not an encyclopedia").

I go there first - often for information on legal cases, which now can be found by googling the case cite without going near a law library.  I find, for a broad brush, the information is fairly accurate.

Last night I looked up Robert Oppenheimer - the Wiki bio was good enough for me - I find it difficult to believe that most of what was there was incorrect.  I have no plans to look into him further.

Let me back that up - this one is easy.  Google "Alco PA".  The first site that comes up is Wiki.  Tell me what is inaccurate in that fairly nice writeup, and make a guess as to how accurate the whole piece is.  I am guessing it is close to 95% accurate, if not more.

Thinking is dangerous and leads to the formulation of ideas, and results in the assignment of both blame and punishment.  The more you think, the more there is no answer.  I just think that too many people just have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

Wikipedia may serve are a starting point on a search for information, but never as a primary source by itself.

What, did he get? What did he, get? What... did he get? What didie get? What'd he get?

WHAT DID HE GET!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, yeah ,yeah.

What did he get?

I agree with some of the other posts - it depends on the subject.  They have some excellent articles on mathematical and statistical issues.  I find them to be a good starting point if I'm trying to get information on some aspect of either of these two subjects.

Yeah, but I wouldn't believe Wikipedia... It is not a reliable source of information. If your English professor tells you 99.9% of stuff on it is a lie, don't use it as a source

Well that is part of the problem with today's education system. Teachers reaching beyond their range of knowledge and making sweeping statements that are accepted as fact by students. If he was promoting critical thinking, comprehension and individual research that is good, but to discount wiki as basically wrong information is ludicrous. 

Butch

LOL...so loud my ears popped..i work there fri and sat and will get the lowdown

Some articles are inaccurate or mere stubs, but some are well written and researched. I've used a lot of the bibliographies to get a start on hard-to-research subjects.

it's kept me off jury duty for over 40 years, though...  gotta count that as a plus.

I'm a Justice of the Peace, so my wife and I are excluded from Jury duty by the Act.

There's always an up side. 

I look at Wikipedia a little differently. When I was in law school, whenever you wrote a brief, memo of points & authorities, or a motion you cited an authority to back up your assertion. An empty Wikipedia post (and they're out there) doesn't have much credibility, but when you see citations in the footnotes they tend to become more credible. The citations give you an opportunity to do further research and confirmation.

As to the resurgence of 2-rail O scale, I think there is some resurgence, though the form is a combination of newcomers, converts from smaller scales and converts from 3-rail (plus a few who play in both worlds). I also think a lot of it has to do with availability of two major items that weren't available 20 years ago -- reasonably priced R-T-R 2-rail models that don't require a football field to turn around (oh to have that kind of space) and track that you don't have to hand lay.

Didn't have Wikipedia when I was in law school.  Now it is the first place I go when I get an exam essay that looks too good to be true.

It is also the first place I go to get a general idea - then, like Matt, I go to the actual source via footnote.  Believe me, it is a lot easier than traditional ways of researching stuff.

As you might have noticed, it really, really works well for trains, where accuracy is not as important as getting a quick feel for things.

Hi.

I'm still old fashioned and depend on books or paperwork for research

When I started researching Railroads in New York Harbor years ago I acquired a library of information which included maps some 6'X4' in size!

I'm still picking up stuff off eBay even now I have some items coming.

Yes it's more expensive but a little more accurate than some of the stuff off the internet.

I certainly never read newspapers or watch television that's where you get wrong information.

Roo.

what about another take on the resurgence.  when the only RTR models were brass imports (Japan/ Korea, not China), O scale was a huge $ investment, on the order of $3000 - $4000 for model production runs of only a few dozen.  3-rail semi-scale (not in the same gist as O-27 or compressed models, but basically less detailed re, the early Williams and later on Weaver brass models from Sam) drastically changed that price structure.

you're never going to get the same pre-HO operation of O scale when clubs with huge spaces were king.  the introduction of HO in the mid to late 30's made home layouts possible and people (for the most part) still don't have 20 x 30 foot spare rooms for layouts (i don't understand your comment about "...don't require a football field to turn around"(?)  though a bit of an exaggeration, they still require twice the space of HO).

but consider people like me...  i have no space for an O scale layout, but my last two MTH model purchases, a NJC Camelback and an SP&S Z6, i bought as the 2-rail scale model versions simply because they are two of my favorite prototypes, and i didn't want them to have the distraction of huge 3-rail flanges and couplers.  i sure wish i could run them, but alternately i sure do enjoy looking at them.

perhaps similar collectors are the basis behind the resurgence?

just a thought...gary

So this thread has taken a much more interesting direction then I anticipated when I posted a simple snippet from Wikipedia. While I thought the comments would focus on the increased availability of quality RTR models and DC vs. DCS vs. DCC the trustworthiness/credibility of Wikipedia as a source is an interesting twist, especially in a 2-rail focused forum!  

As with any source of information, regardless of where it came from, we do as much validation as necessary for the audience/purpose that it's intended.  Certainly space and cost are real factors for everyone considering this hobby.  There are many other factors which help drive our decision to purchase models, but there is no denying that companies like Atlas and MTH today are producing models which generally satisfy both of those factors for a maturing (aging) group of modelers.  These models are also bringing in new enthusiasts.  No scale is really knocking down doors for bringing in new enthusiasts, as high costs for highly detailed models are real in all scales.

I'm going to introduce a factor that not many consider, including Wikipedia, and that's experience.  The younger generation is more concerned with experience, how did something make them feel, remember a real world experience they've had, virtual reality, etc...   Obviously, a lot of variables go into making an experience real.  From there some of what we might consider limitations can be overcome driven by how well a product executed on that experience factor.  O scale is primed and best suited to deliver on the experience factor, just as it did back in the 1900's for that group of enthusiasts!  

As it turns out, experience, is also driving us older modelers into making purchases based on this same factor, and in some cases we are running our trains on floors, outside, on modular layouts and at clubs to overcome the space problem just to have a better experience!   The 2 Rail O scale resurgence is real and provides the best experience! 

Based on my own experience in the San Francisco Bay Area, I disagree that O scale 2-rail

modeling is starting to come back.  I attend O Scale West nearly every year and go to most of the local train shows.  I attended the NMRA convention in Portland in August.

During the last ten years, I don't know of a single new O gauge 2-rail home layout that has been built in this area.  Several home layouts have been taken down because their owners have passed away.  One O gauge 2-rail club layout in this area closed and the space is being taken over by a HO club.  Another O gauge 2-rail club can't recruit new members and its layout is slowly decaying.  There is dust and other stuff all over the scenery, etc.  I believe that most of the membership is over 70.

There was not a single O gauge 2-rail modular layout at the NMRA National Train Show in Portland.  There was one 3-rail modular layout and many Z gauge modular layouts.  I visited two excellent O gauge 2-rail home layouts at the convention.  Both of the owners were in their 70s or 80s.

I don't know who is buying O scale 2-rail trains.  Perhaps it is mostly collectors.  I know of one person who has a collection of over 200 O gauge engines but no layout.  All of his stuff is in display cases.

Does anyone know of a 2-rail O gauge layout, club or home, that has been built in last 10 years?

NH Joe

It is doing a whole lot better than it was in, say, 1975, but OSW is an interesting indicator.  In the early years it was so crowded it was like getting on the subway at rush hour.  Now, not so much - you can walk the aisles reasonably easily.

I think I would opt for the opinion that O Scale 2-rail is as healthy as it has ever been, and maybe so even taking into account the doubling of the population since 1960.  O Scale has surely more than tripled since 1960?

Mike DeBerg,

Mike,in your various shows,meets,etc.,do you see many modelers coming in from other scales? I've only been following this thread slightly since the topic started as the wife had to have a pacemaker & she's had many issues,so times limited on the PC.

Al Hummel

NH Joe,bob2,Mike DeBerg,

Just read your comments & interesting well put opinions are presented going both ways,for & against O Scale. Very good food for thought.

I can go O Scale or stay in HO with the amount of trains I've collected over 30+ years in HO. Yes,I'm still "on the fence."

The space issue with most modelers favors HO,N&maybe even Z,as a last resort on the Z Scale. With that fact of space as well as the higher costs in O Scale because of larger size,plus tighter economic conditions,why would modelers move up to O? The product lines are indeed better than when I was looking at them in the Walthers Catalog back in the early 70s.

I was born into Lionel with my brother as a small boy & didn't know of other scales until the late 60s when I thought I was buying Lionel boxcars out of 1 of the major catalogs & when they came turned out to be HO. I told mom to send them back,but as I studied them decided to keep them & over the years added a few cars here & there,then track. As I aged,my modeling in HO expanded & I started learning how neat HO was. I stayed in it until 1977,when I found how modernized Lionel had become,thinking it had died over these years. Because I hadn't grasped curve radii in HO yet,I had derailments & got discouraged & moved back to Lionel for a couple years & enjoyed it,but a 4'x8' layout space didn't do it for me as I kept remembering the ground throws & derails I had in HO,plus the vast amount of space,so made the trek back to HO where I learned the "ropes" & planned to expand over the years,buying everything I'd need as it came along even though lacking the space to run it. I have roughly70' of shelves full of all that,which the sales of better items,are helping me into O Scale. What I want to do in O Scale plus the lack of things I had in HO,i.e,every kind of freight stock,diesels,track,couplers,is constantly telling me to stay in HO,in addition to the fact as you gentlemen & others have discussed about the decline in O Scale layouts & the age of the modelers in O.

At 57,it doesn't matter much which way I go,but as pointed out,what's available to make o that much more special over other scales? If I hadn;t committed to any scale,the high costs would probably stop me,2nd to the lack of availability vs other scales. where's the Ethanol tankers,modern sand hoppers as well as the 4600 cu ft 3 bay hoppers,GP diesels,ground throws with working targets,shelf couplers for the modern equipment that's out there? The choice would be more difficult if more were available & I think these things are coming,I'm speaking if I were looking in NOW. I've talked myself out of O Scale many times only to not pull out just yet a few days later.

Good discussions modelers,excellent points.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Al Hummel

That isn't a post, it is a dissertation.  O Scale has a fascination quite different from HO.  If you do not feel that fascination it makes zero sense to have such large models that require so much space . . .  HO has everything O Scale does, and way, way more, including correct track gauge and good prices.  The only thing missing is that elusive thing that makes most of us O Scalers.  Is it the size, or is it the charm?

I can think of 8 layouts among my friends that have been started and progressing in  the past 15 years.

I went to Chicago and Cleveland shows for four or five years and 4 or 5 Nationals as well. I don't NEED to go to those shows anymore but I wouldn't mind going if the circumstances were right with work. Everything I need is at my fingertips now which was not as it was in the past. In the past I think the shows where pretty much necessary.

I think Bob is right that you need to have the passion for 0 scale. I wouldn't go to H0 or N even if all I had was a closet to work in. I make it a point to set reasonable goals and get there. Others seem to let what is or isn't available in the market dictate that they'll sit on their hands for ten years when they could have been building SOMETHING. 

That isn't a post, it is a dissertation.  O Scale has a fascination quite different from HO.  If you do not feel that fascination it makes zero sense to have such large models that require so much space . . .  HO has everything O Scale does, and way, way more, including correct track gauge and good prices.  The only thing missing is that elusive thing that makes most of us O Scalers.  Is it the size, or is it the charm?

That might be the best explanation of O scalers and O scale I've seen in print and it's spot on. O scale holds a magic for its members that none of the others gauges do. I've modeled in N, HO, S and Z during my 6+ decades of fascination with model trains, but even through they were all enjoyable in there own right, I always felt I was missing something and there was more. So, I returned to or remained in O scale as my primary gauge. Took me years to understand this (I'm slow) and just surrender and admit I'm an O scaler at heart. 

Butch

I started in O scale when I saw some ON3 models at a local show here in West Australia.

It was the first time I had seen models like that and I immediately set about changing scales I was hooked! Lucky I was going to America about 3 months later.

I was 43 years old now I'm 72 and I have been that long with the scale that I never give it a thought anymore I just accept that that is the scale for Model Railroads for me anyway.

I gave the ON3 idea away after building endless models from kits and never seemed to have time for a layout and went into O Scale.

I think it's the size that fascinates people to get into O scale it did for me.

When I come home from a holiday I walk into the layout room and think this is great it's worth all the time I spend on it.

Roo.

since when do scales stop at O?

it's definitely the size.

cheers...gary

Not for me - I have one of those giant 1.6" scale steamers, and the first $18 grand that comes throught the door takes it and frees up a hundred square feet in my hangar.  It has charm, but not like O Scale.

Roo,

Hello,my friend,it's been a while!

The size is what keeps me in O. If the money were in hand,I'd have a lot of track down. Am currently still working on the yard trackage. So far,I 've settled on the general layout for that trackage,for maximum efficiency. Got to snap a few photos for you fellows.

Take care.

Al Hummel

Nice Gary!  I think trains that large are a lifestyle commitment not just a hobby. I don't know for sure but it sounds like a guy could easily drop $30-40K in a backyard layout with track, rolling stock and one or two locos. Now that is some serious $$$$. 

Butch

don't want to hijack this string but somewhat like the O gauge clubs of yore (admittedly a weak tie-in), a good way to break into large scale live steam is to seek out a local track/ club and get involved.  most clubs will rarely refuse a helping hand in maintaining the track/ grounds and typically schedule a work day at least once a month.  eventually you might even have the good fortune to hook up with an owner/ operator, many who are into their senior years and will gladly accept assistance when presented tactfully.

and backyard railroads, though certainly a possibility, can rarely eclipse the scope of clubs like Maricopa (Phoenix area) with over 17 miles (that's real, not scale, miles) of track or even Riverside with our city block size park and a bit over 1½ mile of mainline.

sure it can be a pricey hobby.  just my unmachined cylinder block casting was as much as many R-T-R O scale locomotives and i can burn 50+ lbs of coal on a good run day, but there's something about pulling back a live steam throttle that can't be matched by turning a knob on a DCC controller and without all the electronics, i have a great sound system, whistle and cylinder steam effects and an actual depleting coal load!

fun stuff...gary