Williams by Bachmann.....

WEll those Streamliners would be prices out of sight with the current prices of Aluminum.

I learned a long time ago that just because I want something doesn't mean that anybody else does.

Pete

Texas Pete,

   I know what you mean, but those Aluminun Southern Steamer Passenger cars are seriously cool!

PCRR/Dave

I personally overheard the big guy at Bachman say at their booth  in YORK quote "If I don't think it will sell I am NOT going to make it". There you have it.

Rob

Wow, that bodes poorly for WBB...he has a low bar set for sales.

I'm always asking myself why WBB does not offer anything in the Long Island scheme. Always a hot road name. With the k-line rs3 tooling and their 60 and 72 foot Madison cars they could easily make a nice parlor car "cannon Ball" passenger and diesel set. And jmp on the band wagon with mth, lionel and others

I was as big a fan of Williams as anyone before the Bachmann aquisition. But each time I visited their web page there was less product being offered and the prices of what was listed was higher. I eventually stopped visting and it seems I haven't missed much. I think their strategy leaves something to be desired. 

Chipset said "I assume Bachmann bought Williams to make money...

Yet, one has to wonder with all the tooling they already have, why they no longer produce WONDERFUL, hard to find, yet in demand items such as this (Southern Aluminum Streamliners".

My read is that Bachmann is getting out of the o'gauge market to concentrate on the ON30 & HO line.  That's where the real money is.  I may be left handed but I'm always RIGHT.  I also predicted 2 yrs in advance that K Line would be bought out and a lot of forum members said "NEVER HAPPEN". 

All new tooling of 3 locomotives, reworked locos,  retooled or new tooling on 3 cars. Some new electronics. Lots of advertising in 3 of the top model rail magazines. Either they are trying hard to make WbB a profitable enterprise or are doing their own live action remake of Brewsters Millions and trying to spend themselves out of business. 

On K-line I'd had agreed with you. (wasn't oh the OGR at the time.) But very nice die cast NYC 2 bay hoppers at 5 for $90 will not last very long. My job as a Sr Analyst was not needed to tell anyone that fact.

Some overly-dramatic opinions on this topic.

Yeah, "IC fan", lots of drama above (I'll even forgive your "IC fan"...why? GM&O guy.

Employee, even).

But, if one was the boss of something, and said "I don't think it will sell...but I'll make it

anyway!", one's tenure would be short and silly, would it not?

These guys aren't perfect (who is?), but I guarantee you that 90% of any successful

manager's decisions are based on data and analysis. They are not knee-jerk whims.

Doesn't mean that they are always correct, even after careful consideration, but stats

are on their side.

If Bachmann intended to scrap the Williams brand (yet new things keep showing up...),

why buy it? They certainly weren't a competitor for any Bachmann line, and B. didn't

need any new distribution channels.

I like the aluminum cars, too, though I'm not in the market. But Williams stuff - especially

the pre-Ten-Wheeler steamers - really need a refresh, especially mechanically. The diesels/electrics, too. Good bones, but just not up to it any more. The PA's and U-boats, and so on, need to approach the quality of the new(!) GP30's and (K-line) RS-3's.

There are many questions one could legitimately ask:  How well has the new tooling worked out financially, apart from the ten-wheeler?  How many folks have bought the new streetcars?  Where is the remake of the K-Line GP38?  How has the GP30 done?  How will the conventional 44-Tonner fare against the MTH PS3 version?  Are people rushing to buy SD-90 engines with True Blast Plus?  Where are the separately sold True Blast Plus boards that were in the catalog?  Where are True Blast Plus steam locomotive boards?  Except for the ten-wheeler, what is happening to the rest of the steam locomotive line?  Why are they making their own new track, but putting old Atlas track in their sets?  Why isn't most of the old Williams engine and passenger car tooling being used and improved?  Why have catalog offerings shrunk every year since 2012?  Why does the WBB online store have so few finished items in stock, but numerous engine shells in many roadnames to sell?  You can purchase even Boston and Maine E7 shells.

I think that Bachmann was enthusiastic in the beginning, but became bewildered as it tried to figure out what to do with the "big fish" it caught in Jerry Williams' pond.  I think it does not understand the real reasons why Williams had moderate success as a niche select part of the O Gauge market.  How committed long-term is Bachmann to O Scale?  What I keep hearing about at their presentations are all the new innovations for HO (smartphone control, etc.) that might find their way eventually (if we live long enough) into the O Gauge line. 

As Bachmann continues to try to sell Williams conventional products at non-competitive high prices, it continues to discontinue products that don't make the profits it had hoped for.  Unlike K-Line, this strategy does not lead to the bankruptcy of an entire company, but to the phasing out of a single "unprofitable" division of an entire company.  Bachmann doesn't need Williams, and company resources will be allocated based upon the profitability of selling fewer and fewer products at higher prices.

I may be dead wrong, and we may see an upgraded and more detailed E7 (including A and B unpowered units) or a reissued K-Line ABA E8 set with new roadnames, greater detail, and True Blast Plus.  Of course, the MSRP for such might be a deal-killing $999 (or above) MSRP.  In contrast, the old Williams enterprise never expected to compete with the market share or profit margins of Lionel or MTH.  That was its genius.

I've bought some WBB products and they have all been well made.  My newest WBB locos are a B&M F-3 and a CN RS-3.  I was disappointed the F-3 didn't come with the sound board like the RS-3 did.  

I do miss the variety of roadnames that Williams made.  If it not a railroad that operated in New England I don't buy it anymore.  The small handful of new diesels, steamers, and rolling stock is not very impressive.  I personally do not care for the stripped down looks of the 4-6-0 with it's oversized tender.  I'd much prefer an upgraded version of a Williams 2-8-4 or 4-6-4.  I think RMT might have done a better job with the old Williams line.  

I've got a lot of Williams locos, but i guess I'll be buying more Lionchief Plus in the future to get a better bang for the buck.  I see a 2-8-2 Lionchief, custom painted for the Maine Central being added to my roster in the coming year.  

lionchief

"Wild Mary"

Nick, you're right, 100% on point. I predicted years ago and restated not that long ago the following. The folks at Bachmann will do exactly what Lionel did to K-Line. They will milk the cow dry. And when the contractual obligations expire, Williams will be a foot note in history.

God Bless,

"Pappy"

Pappy,

   Unfortunately you are probably correct about Bachman & the Williams name.

Get them while you can.  I will intend to hold on to my original Williams stuff, I like it.

PCRR/Dave

I don't like one brand better than another......or dis-like one more than another.

As long as the work well and are in my budget/comfort range....and I like it...I buy.

Williams and WbB have been the most consistent weather I buy new, NOS or used.

Let's say Bachmann decides to get out of O 3 rail biz.  Do they just dump the assets they paid Jerry for AND the new tooling in the river???  No...like any biz the sell the assets off. This could recreate a 'new' Williams.

But just as likely Bachmann/Kader and the part owner Chinese Govnt could just buy MTH or....gasp...Lionel to obtain a command system and LOTS of tooling.

Don't think it can happen??? Look up Smithfield Farms foods.  HUGE  Virginia based food producer bought in 2013 by a mix of commercial and government Chinese entities.  They paid 7.1 billion......Lionel would cost what they spend on lunch.

It's best to hope things stay as good as they are right now.

Bachmann/ Williams are okay by me, but as near as I can tell, they lack in the really detailed department. At least in my humble opinion. For example. If you examine the typical Williams diesel locomotive, it lacks many of the details so readily common on MTH and Lionel locomotives. I realize not everyone cares about those really nifty details, but I do. Especially when I am paying the exuberant prices charged for some of these rather remarkably detailed locomotives.

Anyway, as a matter of practicality, Williams is actually a really cool brand if one is looking for simplicity and functionality. Those streamliners pictured are really cool looking actually and I for one would like to see Williams recreate some of these cars again.

It seems like a lot of you folks don't realize that Williams by Bachmann is owned by the largest electric train company in the world. WBB is not some mom and pop operation.

I guess the marketing department is at fault.  G

Simple fact, I love WBB but if you go to ANY website dealer, the WBB inventory is shrinking.

Fast and not being replaced.

   The orginal Williams appealed to a niche market.   It had a loyal following.  Simplicity and reliability were it's strong suits.   The purchasers of Williams could have cared less if, for example, there was no Protosounds or TMCC.

   It seems that when Bachmann acquired Williams, Bachmann seemed to get away from appealing to Williams core market and into Lionel and MTH territory. 

    The new Ten Wheeler and GP 30 were in my opinion, were great offerings, but something seemed to be missing. 

For example, why didn't WBB offer the GP 30 in the Reading paint scheme?   After all, the Reading was the first purchaser of the GP 30.   

The B & O, according to Sagle and Stauffer's B & O Power owned 77 GP30s.  The Pennsy purchased GP 30s; eventually the Pennsy (NYC, and Reading,too) GP 30s became Conrail units.  A Penn Central GP 30 probably would have been a great seller.    

    OK, that's my take on this.

AGAIN, if WBB does not want our money, I am 100% sure we can find someone else to take it!

Also, to put it bluntly, and it does not matter if it is a train maker or a train store/dealer.

If I go to your web site or store and cannot find what I want, I CAN and WILL find it elsewhere.

Not interested in excuses, I do not own these businesses, and just like my own finances, they are not the train maker or store/dealers issue, i.e. "Oh I don't have enough money", then if not me, then someone else with better control of their finances will purchase from them.

By the same token, I am not interested in the train maker or store/dealer's finances, it is THEIR business to run and not mine, and you either have what the customer wants or you don't.

And there are tons of alternatives for customers to go to and find what they want.

So to quote Lee Iacocca, "move forward or get out of the way".

If your not worried about the finances, which is a major driver of what is produced, why start a thread wondering why someone doesn't make what you want?

"I assume Bachmann bought Williams to make money...

Yet, one has to wonder with all the tooling they already have, why they no longer produce WONDERFUL, hard to find, yet in demand items such as this (Southern Aluminum Streamliners):"

Rusty

RE: Shrinking inventory.

Yes, it is shrinking but I still see plenty of Willaims product available every day on the Bay. And some dealers -- Train World and Mario's come to mind -- seem to have a good supply of Williams. 

Exactly.  And, they got that way because they know how to do business.

A lot of drama queens here.

I predicted here about a year or so ago, that the secondary market like Ebay will gain greater importance due to the fact that the trend of fiscal conservatism on the part of the manufacturers and their repetition of remakes and limited production as well as basing that production on guaranteed sales...means less variety that is subsequently filled by Ebay and others.

One thing I noticed is the pricing on the secondary market with some exceptions is pretty steady, and often pricey in terms of used stuff. I suspect the market is there but....to my mind, they don't have a clue as to what will sell which brought about BTO...as an end run strategy around not knowing.

Readers here it seem to want obscure variations, seldom modeled regional lines etc which leads some to conclude the market is too finicky and diverse. I don't think it's that picayune. There are prototypes that have not been done that I suspect would sell.

While there would be the same extinct road names attached to them, I still suspect they would sell.

Some that occur to me are a Whitcomb powered U.S army consist. Whitcombs were the diesel power of choice in the Army during the 40's.

Another would be a Steeplecab..one of the few electric motive power choices not already modeled. One could use it for mainline yard switching ( as the Milwaukee did) or pull a prototypical freight interurban style down a Superstreet.

Another would be a circus set consist.

etc.

I think some , not all, of this conservatism throws the baby out with the bathwater.

"It seems like a lot of you folks don't realize that Williams by Bachmann is owned by the largest electric train company in the world. WBB is not some mom and pop operation."

FYI,Kader is the largest maker by volume and for 50+ different companies.

Takara-Tomy (Tomix)of Japan is the largest overall by sales and a single brand. 

I like the Wiliams for their bulletproof performance. was glad to see that they added the New Haven road name to the alco FA2. but  as of yet it is not on the market. also the rs3 was introduced in some same old boring road names. would have been better with New Haven,Long Island And maybe a penn central

I find that WBB is making less items and charging more for what they make.

I am going with MTH or RMT for new items lately, they are more affordable.

The older Williams before Bachmann is what got me to buy Williams. It looks like my purchases for Williams will be used Williams stuff before Bachmann.

The prices are just too out of line compared to MTH or Lionel. Compare prices for rolling stock with WBB to MTH or Lionel and you get a better bargain buying the non-WBB item.

Another thing to sour me about WBB is the wait time for new products to see the market.

Lee Fritz

Whats odd about all of this is that when Kader tossed everyone out of their production facilities, they were putting a knife into their competitors cash flow which was never great to begin with as they scrambled for new facilities. Production delays cost $$$$.

Kader could have taken advantage of this but instead seems to have tried to copy them in making them cost wise on a even keel while not having all the bells and whistles, the others have. I think they shot themselves in the foot. Time will tell, but I think they lost their market advantage.

I think the others are still recovering to varying degrees from that catastrophic loss of facilities and will be for some time to come. I think the dip in quality and long lead times are evidence of this. I suspect they are cash poor and will be for awhile longer.

Why ask why

When did Bachmann buy Williams?

October of 2007 if I recall correctly.

Where exactly can you go on the web and find out what models that Jerry Williams Produced. Reason, that I'm asking is we have a guy in our area who has a bunch of the old Williams Trains that he never sold, when he was a dealer for Williams late 60's thru the early 90's. They are all still in their original shipping cartons,+ inner boxes, so I know they are Williams Products. Several items, I didn't think that Williams made?

I've a similar site for K-Line, that went way,way back, but not Williams Trains.... Thanks in Advance for any help........................................Brandy!