Winter in the mountains: tile thinset?

Here are a few more photos...

Tough crowd today!

I'm wondering if the thinset might crack over time; maybe I'm better off with one of those sculpt-a-mold products...?

Any advice as to whether I should use chicken wire or interwoven strips of cardboard to build the mountain structures? Perhaps there's an even better option someone can suggest?

DCC,

   I love your layout and am sorry nobody is giving you a hand with further Ideas that you might be able to use.  I have never like the chicken wire construction for tunnels and mountains, because I keep my layouts very child like and realism is not what I want, my ideas would have you building your villages and mountains in that manner, if you are more of a rivet counter, you probably would not like it, however I would turn the entire layout into a complete mining town operation, with focal points on the steam era trains.  If you are into the more realistic modern look, contact Alan and get him to give you a few ideas as to how to construct towns and trestle like he does.

PCRR/Dave

Mr Desert,I can offer some help.Im not on much in the summer I am to busy out on my boat on Lake Erie.Here are a few pics of the woven cardboard method.I myself apply screen type drywall tape over the cardboard then apply 3 layers of Durabond 90 (setting type joint compound)It is easier to work with than thin set.Would be happy to help you out in any way I can.Your layout looks great.Nick

Hello Dave & Nick--

Greetings, and thanks for your replies.

Dave, I know what you mean when you say realism isn't what you hope to attain. For me, I've always been fascinated with the idea of having a train layout with mountains and tunnels. I have been holding onto these postwar trains, and while not in the best condition, they are family heirlooms that I used to play with around the tree as a kid in the 70s. My space is limited to a 4' x 8' and I'm looking forward to having this winter mountain scene that I have always envisioned. Just the small mountain cabin, utility barn, and "abandoned" water wheel are the perfect accessories for me. But I digress...

Nick, those photos are exactly what I'm looking for regarding the woven cardboard; many thanks. I will have to cut some strips and experiment with the weaving & shaping process. Is a dab of glue sufficient to hold the ends of the cardboard to the table? 

Another question for you. Rather than having the mountain regions all come down to the 4' x 8' platform, I'm thinking of "cheating" around the sides and affixing sections of 1/4" plywood that will run perpendicular to the table. Not sure if I'm explaining that too well, so I will attach a photo from the internet to convey the idea. On the one hand it will allow me to avoid steep drop-offs to meet the edge of the table, but as this sample picture shows a much smaller gauge, my 0 gauge setup has quite a bit of track crammed into the space, and I'm not sure how the finished product will look. Any thoughts?

Again, this is an internet photo that shows the "boxed-in" sides concept that I'm considering...

Eric's Trains has some tutorials on mountain and tunnel building with woven cardboard strips glued with a hot glue gun.

He finishes with a resin material and rock molds. More expensive and time consuming.

Rosin paper may work over the weave. It is used in construction to cover floors. Home Depot has it. It is thick enough and durable enough to shape and crinkle and then cover with the durabond. Hot glue would hold it.

Winter is no different than summer, except for the snow. You need to let some rocks and earth show through, so you'll have to do some base painting in areas. Even in Alaska, rocks and earth show through the snow in winter. Follow Eric's video's to the finishing. He follows common techniques for the base painting. The Woodland Scenic's snow really finishes things off. Use the white glue technique like Eric uses for the ground cover.

You always need trees. I use the LeMax snow bottle brush trees. I don't want realism either. I like an abstract approach. Let the viewer's eye create the realism. 

I like the look of the edge's showing the terrain relief, as if it were cut out of the earth. You don't see that much in O scale. It would make your layout stand out. Do the edge thing with the plywood. Good idea! It's not cheating. It's a different technique. I don't believe it would be difficult to jigsaw the relief out of a ply wood sheet. Your photo example shows you that it looks cool. Paint the outside the color of the earth or rock for the area that you are modeling or the same as the colors you use on the mountain terrain.

There's also a Dave Frary video on you tube showing the dry brush technique for painting mountains. You can move quickly and you don't have to be perfect.

This is a nice layout for a 4 x 8. It will look great when you add the terrain.

Keep us posted as you finish it.

Here are pics from my former RR club- Bergen Co Model RR Club- that I used to belong to[ Moved out of the Area]. They used Wood Frame, Cardboard strips with Screen mesh and the plaster cloth. IT's a 4x8 piece of engineering marvel.

Rigid foam insulation works well.  It comes in various thicknesses (3/4” to 2” I think).  It can be cut and shaped easily.  It can be stacked/layered using hot melt glue to join layers.  It makes rigid, lightweight scenery/structures that can be removed if needed to allow access.  You can paint it or cover it with plaster cloth.  I have used it to make coal loads, landscapes, rock formations, crowned roads and masonry structures.  I’m planning to replace my wire/newspaper/plaster cloth mountain with it this fall.

Thanks for the outpouring of advice--I sincerely appreciate it. 

I did pick up a hot glue gun and I will proceed with the cardboard strips to form the terrain. The guy at Home Depot happened to be a model railroad enthusiast, and he advised that I use plaster of paris once the plaster sheets are put down. Looking at a few of "Eric's" videos from the link offered above, I see that he recommends using joint compound, which seems MUCH less messy than mixing up plaster of paris that sets in 20-30 minutes. What I do like about the plaster is that I feel I can apply it, and then brush over it with a wet sponge to get the smooth "blanket of snow" effect. Does that sound right? I do want to use some of the gray & ochre Woodland Scenics colors that I picked up to show exposed rocks as Moonman suggests, but I don't want to go crazy on it and spend weeks & weeks. 

For now I will proceed with the cardboard strips as you guys (and Eric) advise.

Thank you all again for taking the time to offer advice/post pictures. Please feel free to send along more tips.

A request for further advice, if I may.

I've put in quite a few hours on my layout these past few evenings, and from when I took the pictures above this past Monday, all of my portals/tunnel entry cosmetics are completed and I've begun running the cardboard strips.

While testing again for clearances with my "second string" consist last night (I'm not really a collector per se: my train assemblage is comprised of a "pretty nice" consist powered by a 682 turbine, and a "less nice" lineup behind a 681) the 681 exited the portal located right in front of the transformer, flew off the track, and landed on the concrete floor below. Fortunately the damage was limited to a crack in the draw bar that's easily replaceable and a small dent in the cow catcher.

This gave me pause, however. I have run the consist over 100 laps through the layout by now, and though this is the first derailing to cause a train to fly off the setup altogether, I don't want my nice 682 to suffer the same fate. I have in fact decided the to affix vertical pieces of 1/4" plywood around the edges that I will cut with a jigsaw, and as you can see in the photos, the tracks run VERY close to the edges of the 4' x 8' layout by virtue of the fact that I essentially crammed three track levels onto one confined space.

Though it may look funny, I am considering the idea of extending the layout by one foot on each side. While it would require a bit more carpentry, the track route would remain exactly the same, but whereas now the tracks run right along the edge, the extra foot of "terrain" on each side would a) make the whole thing look less cramped, and b) potentially save my trains from smacking the concrete floor in the event of derailing.

May I have thoughts/opinions/advice from all of you seasoned model railroaders?

Thanks once again.

The tunnel needs to be a restricted speed area on your railroad.  The "S" before the exit may have wiggled the pilot truck. Also, check the inside of the portal on the outside near the transformer to determine if the wiggle hit it. Perhaps a new truck spring is in order.

I would extend the scenery up about 2" and make it "rocks" to give you a buffer for a derail. I like the steeper cliff look, as if a ledge was carved out of the steep mountainside as they would in a real situation.

Thanks Carl--

That may be the solution at the portal exit, as there was no way around the "s" jog design. The only thing is that there's only just a hair over 1" of space between the homasote roadbed along the front of the layout (where the train exits the portal at the ZW transformer) and the edge of the table, so it doesn't leave much space to work with. Along the 8' side on the back, however, the side of the roadbed literally runs flush along the edge...

I understand that the modern trains & transformers are computerized, so as to be programmable for speed-ups and slow-downs. This layout took months of engineering trial-and-error to obtain workable grades and clearances (and even now the consist can only operate in one direction due to an un-climbable grade to the left of the transformer). The transformer voltage has to be set to exactly 14v in this layout: any lower and the locomotive can't really pull the cars up the inclines, and any higher results in derailing on the way down. At 14v my 681 & 682 pull a tender, 2 or 3 cars, and a caboose perfectly. I'm not sure why the "s" caused the loco to jump off the track yesterday, because there are no clearance issues at the portal.

A smaller gauge would have worked better here, but a big part of the appeal is the sentimental value of these trains.

As you're running conventional you can divide your layout into sections and have the voltage for each section set as needed. Insulated pins in the center rail provide the blocks. To reduce voltage one possibility is using resistors. A better approach as you indicated you have a ZW is to use two or three of its throttles to provide the required voltage to uphill, downhill and level track.

A good source of information on convention tricks and tips is the out of print series of books by Peter Riddle, Wiring your Lionel layout. Vol 2 has a chapter on the above. The revised edition published by Kalmbach is not as much help for conventional.

I could send you scans of the pages if you're interested and can't find the book.

(We can't have those turbines going to the floor.)

Scotie

Hello Scotie--

I do see Wiring Your Toy Train Layout for cheap on the internet; thanks for that tip. I'm pretty good with woodworking (you may note a 16' canoe I made in the corner of one of my layout photos) though I'm pretty much clueless with regard to electronics. Back when I started this project @1 1/2 yrs ago, I took my ZW transformer to an old-timer to have it rebuilt. I ran by him the idea of isolating sections of the Super O track just as you describe, but he said no; something about shorting the transformer as a result of the dual-roller locomotive simultaneously picking up power from each side of the insulator. It would be great to have three sections of track, but he put me off the idea...

I would get a fresh spring for the pilot truck.  Keep the heavier cars in the consist closer to the loco.

When I looked at the photo closely, I should have realized that you built it with sufficient clearance.

A guard rail or clear plexi would look ok for a bumper.

I would avoid more construction at this stage of the layout.

Glad the damage was only minor.

I'm aware of the potential issue of multiple pickups causing a problem. In theory it is correct but many folks have done this without a problem.

I think it may be mainly an issue if you "park" a train with multiple pickups that bridge the gap.

Scotie

I cannot imagine having to break down a 4x8 layout into multiple power districts to control speed/voltage.If your running conventional(or command) why not just use the throttle to speed up and slow down in the proper areas??????Maybe I'm missing something here???DCC-slow that train down a little.Good luck.Nick

  It's not "if" they are pretty to the rest of us, who cares, but how much you love them that makes them appear as such to you.... the trains too   

 "Widening"- Did you leave room for cab and pilot overhangs clear to the house walls?

  Except for carpet layouts "something" takes a fall sooner, or later. Efforts be dashed, Murphy says so.

Soft throw rugs

Look for "cold flow" threads for re-bending any cast accidents.

 There is more potential for issues with circuit board trains across the power gap.

But thousands of folks run power blocks with little issue.

 Bridging the power gap for long, not so great an idea, but nothing that has caused damage in my lifetime. I think I've had my pre war Z bridged for about twenty minutes. No smoke. No breaker trip (added from a ZW)

  A simple single throttle method for "look Ma no hands" would be adding a heavy ceramic resistor to the down grade. Put it on a switch(es) between blocks for direction reversal, or a 3 way, or 4way switch for "off", or more speed blocks.

I love the thought of a sedimentary cut away on the edges too.

You could use textures, or just paint it to look like a text book.

 Any style conflict would be minimized by surface separation, and good color shade choices for the painting. 

A buried dino.? An acient hut? A motorcycle? Bear cave? Underground stream? Etc, etc.