Wire Quality - this is a first for me

What type of connections did you use...crimp, solder, twist-n-tape...?

Do you own an ohmmeter?

Have you checked each individual wire for continuity? 

(It's not a conduit, BTW; it's a sheath, just to keep the terminology on the right track.)

Connections are crimped spade connectors which are screwed into terminal barrier strips.

I do have an ohmmeter (actually a multi-meter).  The 10' sheath is mounted to the benchwork, so I have not checked each wire for connectivity.  I might do that for giggles after I remove it.  But it's going back to the supply house for a refund.

George

Thank you for the correction on terminology.

For a quick continuity test, there is no need to remove it. Just short all 4 leads at one end, and check for continuity at the other end, using all 6 combinations of leads, taken two at a time.  Look at any two leads, and if you see a meter reading, those two leads are OK.  I would remove the crimped on connectors before testing, to eliminate the possibility of "operator error" or, more technically, a "brain fart."

I would say that the odds of having a 4-conductor wire, 10 feet in length, have all 4 conductors open, is a zillion to one. Unless someone sabotaged the wire in the store, or something weird like that.

Having worked with wiring problems for the last 55 years or so, I take a professional interest in things like this. Please keep us informed as to what you find to be the fault in the wire.

 Crimped a spade connector over the insulation instead of crimping onto the bare wire?

That's one of many possibilities...

I know nothing about the wiring of the DZ2500's, but my first suspect would be one (or more) of the crimp connectors, but anything is possible and it sure could be the wire or wires?

I've had multi-conductor wire with all 4 leads shorted inside the sheath, at the point where the factory equipment ran out of wires and new ones were fastened on (soldered), so that the sheathing process could continue. Very confusing, once the cable was already installed in a pipe, over 200 feet long.

Art,

You were right, it was a bad connection.  The wires failed just above the crimp and the connector fell off.

I have reconnected the wire and we have power to all switch machines.   The signal problem hasn't been solved yet, but this is a step on the right path.

Thank goodness it wasn't the wire itself!

Thank you!

George

Over the years I have had WAY more problems with crimp connects than wire. I still use them occasionally myself, but I much prefer wire nuts or terminal strips like the Euro-style ones that don't need the crimps.

Another thing with crimps is that the problem may not show up right away. Sometimes it is long after the crimps were made when someone jiggles something or pulls on a wire or something like that.

I hear you.  I've had pretty good luck with them up to now.

My least favorite connection device is wire-nuts, though.  They just seem to fail all the time.  Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I find them worthless and unreliable.

George

I usually solder any crimps.

How do you solder a crimp with a lug that has insulation on it?  I have been involved in installing electronic equipment in very harsh environments and we used crimp connections.  A crimp done correctly is as good as a solder junction. 

 Knowing to check voltage drop, or at least continuity, on long rolls of control wire, before you start to put it up, can save thousands of dollars, and deadlines, for 2 minutes of extra time.( git-R-dun...  Get-R..done right )

That's easy! You try to crimp the "Auto-shoppe" connecter with the wrong crimper (they sold you that also!), and the insulator falls off. Now solder 

Left to the elements, I'll take a well supported solder over a crimp, any day.

 Crimping makes the insulation piece fall off 98% if the time anyhow, seeing how most crimp tools are a joke (Note: those at the auto-parts store are not  real crimpers making "real crimps")

When was the last time you pulled a wire out a soldered connection by accident. Never!

I do use dot & dimple crimps too. But I don't love them. Last week one pulled out of my PW Z's common-post ring connector, after I stressed it. The only non-soldered wire behind the Z now, is that blocks hot-post (B!). 

But for unsupported, light gauge, multi-strand wire ends, in vibration prone connections?

 A crimps non-ridged hold, keeps breaks, and frays in line a little better.

That's why industry tends to use the full double wing crimp. The extra wing is grabbing the insulation providing support, stopping breaks, but mainly, no solder cuts costs.

Adriadic,

You make valid comments and there is a Place for soldered connections and a place for crimp connections.  I think crimp connections have a place in our hobby but too many hobbyist don't do them properly and hence you have insulation that falls off or wire that pulls out.  I have a ratcheting crimper that puts just the right amount of pressure on the lug so the insulation does not break and the wire is solidly connected.  With the number of connections I have done under my board, I will stay with crimps for their speed of connection.  I do admit to soldering my drops to my Atlas track.

Crimp connections are easier to screw up, most folks can master soldering and make good solder connections.  Unless you have the proper crimp tool for each connector, and the training to use it, crimp connections are a hit-or-miss affair.

John is right the quality of the crimp is only as good as the installer, I have personally seen crimps done where more insulation gets crimped then the actual wire, the correct skinning of the wire is critical for a proper lasting connection!

Alan Mancus

When the insulation only gets crimped you may have a connection or you may not and can possibly had in intermittent connection!!

To clarify my post above, the crimps I was referring to were all professionally installed by licensed contractors hired by the companies I worked for before retirement. I had to go find a few of these over the years when a site was having problems, sometimes intermittent. Either way, sometimes very difficult to find the problem. The butt splice connectors were the worst.

As GRJ stated, whether due to improper tools, lack of know-how or for whatever reason, crimps are easier to goof up than they are to get right. This is not just done by hobbyists, the pros goof up just as many as anyone else. The reason I am fond of the terminal strips such as the Euro-style ones requiring no crimps.  

Art,  You were right...

Would you mind emailing my 1st wife, and repeating that message to her?

As a boy working on cars, I soldered. But many of those failed, due to lack of support at the fulcrum of the wire bend. My crimps pulled out, so I relied on knot like twisting and good taping to keep me moving.

 Later, at work(coin op), having a soldering iron ready at the flip of a switch, rather than having to dig it out, was instrumental in my being more willing to solder most connections. It just worked out too well over time.

 A butane iron let the corded ones stay on the bench, and deepened my liking for soldering just about everything.

 I was hooked, and took the habit home. 

In HVAC, and pneumatic flow controls, doing field work mostly required crimping. I was a PITA there too, because I insisted on real crimp supplies before I would even start. You should have seen the look on a few of the engineers faces when I refused to even take their box of "Skittles connectors"  (the round blue ones we called "dots"). 

But they knew I was right too, so I always got my way. Pretty work, right, & functional  

Now if I could've only get to those last three habits more while at home too.     

When ever I crimp (using the proper crimping tool) I hold the very tip of the terminal to a BernzOmatic  flame.

Holding un insulated terminals with small needle nose pliers, I touch solder to the back end where the wire enters the terminal. 

On insulated terminals I again expose the very end of the terminal to a flame and carefully introduce solder to the slightly exposed wire end.

Many years ago I hired an electrician specializing in model RRing to wire a layout for me.  He was like a sewing machine in the way he securely flame soldered almost everything; overhead, work bench, even control panels.   Stuff I thought was either difficult, impossible or even wrong he did with perfection.

BTW, Anderson Power Poles recommends soldering even with use of their expensive ratchet crimping tool.

After a stint in aircraft maintenance, 15 years of my background was rigging limited & off shore race boats where a failed wire connection could cost a very expensive DNF.  An added line of defense in boat racing was a dab of 100% silicone adhesive on all connections to help resist corrosion.

Other considerations are proper clamping of wire looms, cable tie spacing, stress relief loops, etc.

No.  That's going to cost you!

First of all, because I'm a man, she isn't going to believe me.

Second, it's about you, so I can't be right anyway. 

Am I right? 

George

RTR12,

I never bought any barrel connectors for just the reason stated.  I always told my guys to go get a piece of wire the correct length and rerun it.  At the time stranded copper wire was cheaper than trouble shooting.....

Yes, it has happened to me with new Cat5e cable, which is 24awg. There was no obvious crimp or crease in the cabling sheath, but when I finally saw the light and tested each wire for continuity, I found a zero.

So, I now test all wiring for continuity before making it live. Then I know, rather than assume, that all is well.

I generally crimp all the terminals onto wire including Power Pole connectors. I have a couple of ratcheting crimpers for the Power Pole and some Gardner Bender and Kline crimper pliers for the regular terminals, spade connectors and such. I don't care for the insulated ferrule on those since it prevents getting a good solid crimp in my experience. I put the dimple of the tool on the back side of the collar of the connector and squeeze very hard. The crimps don't fail done that way.

I work at a heavy duty alternator manufacturer.

What you guys might call quality wire we call junk.

Some of the best wire out there is called XLPE cross linked polyethylene. But it can't handle the temperatures of PTFE wire, basically Teflon. PTFE has a problem of migrating when routed over a sharp bend. THHN wire for your house is good for 90C and has a Teflon like covering to make it easier to pull thru conduit. Another rarified wire type is "Hypalon" which I found out is no longer made, something like Hypalon II, I am sure the EPA had something to do with that. Point is, the type of wire to use depends upon the application and how much you want to spend.

When I go back to the type of wire I find in model trains I have to laugh, it melts and shrinks right away any time a soldering iron gets near it, but, will, we don't want spend $600 for an engine, because costs need to be removed.

It is possible that you passed a large amount of current thru your wire and caused it to short together.