Wiring Help

I'm trying to remember the questions as I responded this. The reason why it would be a good idea to not daisy chain all of your connections together and feed them to the Transformer is because if you ever have a short circuit somewhere on the layout it will be heck to find it.

I am not a fan of Power Drop jumper wires.

You asked about selectors. Selectors were primarily for running two trains at the same time before command control. There are four buttons on each selector. When you push the button up the particular section of track that you have that screw wired to is powered by Transformer a if that same button is pulled to the bottom then Transformer B powers that section of track.

I still use selectors on my layout even though I have command control. Why? You should get on the glacier line YouTube channel and look at the video that says the argument for blocks. I have my layout separated into 50 separate blocks. No need for any jumper wires! It is a major advantage to use selectors and just run one wire to each about 20 foot section of track. Why? Because when you do have a short and you will. It is so easy to trace where the problem is by just turning off the selector buttons one at a time.

I have well over 500 and some-odd feed of track. If I was trying to find a short circuit and everything was wired together as one solid unit it might take the rest of my life to figure out where the problem was.

It is really wise to wire your wires from your Transformer through your command system to a power distribution board from a single screw on a power distribution board to the selector and from the selector to the track. In other words divide your track in two blocks and just have one wire from the selector. Note you can ground all of the black wires all of the negative wires can be daisy-chained or tied together.

I probably have thoroughly confused you. Go to the glacier Line YouTube channel and look for the video that says something like the argument for blocks.

UP SD70 posted:

I'm just about to wire my layout from all the power drops to the transformers.  It's a custom layout, but I used a lot of ideas from the Atlas O 3-Rail Layout book... but I've got a few questions..

First:  Can I wire all the power drops in the layout to each other, or do I have to run each drop all the way to the transformer, via the distribution board.

You can run the drops to a distribution board

Second:  Since using the Atlas book as a guide, what are the HD Selectors for? I've never used any, but they seem prevalent in every layout that is in the book.

The HD Selectors are simply switches. They are used for block control when running in conventional or transformer mode. Page 22 of the Atlas O 3-rail layout book describes their use.

Third:  Again, since using the Atlas book as a guide, I've always put track insulators on the middle rail after each turn out. Is there a reason for that?

One would do that to isolate a passing siding, like the one on your layout, to permit parking a train and turning off the power. It would also be used to separate two loops electrically at a pair of crossover switches. Finally, one would do that at intervals of a length determined by you, to create blocks on the mainline.

It is not something that is necessary for a build as a standard procedure in 3-rail AC powered layouts.

 I thought it was for installing signals for the layout, but I thought when you isolate track for signals or accessories, that you use the outer rail, not the middle rail.

Below is a recent shot of my layout.  You can follow my progress if you want here:

https://ogrforum.com/topic/starting-fresh

That's about it.  Any advice is also welcome! Thanks all.

 

Ok, I picked up TIU from your layout build thread, so, I assume that you will be running DCS. Therefore, you should be dividing the loops into 10'-15' by placing an insulating  pin the center rail at those points.

I would say place them at the center of the curves and the center of the straights to create 4 blocks for each loop. That would 8 pair of power feeds.

Then, you connect a pair of power feed wires at one end of each block.

This helps with the DCS signal.

I would insulate the passing siding and use a simple toggle switch (On/Off) to cut the power of a parked train for there. Placing the pin in the center rail at the turnout end would work here. Doing this would turn off the lights in cars and prevent the maintenance timer from running on DCS engines if it were constantly powered.

This would be the 9th block of pair of power feeds.

Then, insulate before the switch to the yard for a 10th block or set of feeds. You may also consider a kill switch for there.

I wouldn't be concerned about insulating the crossover pairs of switches as you are running in command mode.

That's my 2¢

I like to run power feeds to the center of the block, so the little electrons only have to go half the distance of the block length.

@John C. How do you wire your layout if you're not a fan of Jumper wires?  

@Moonman I probably should've mentioned I was running DCS/TIU via AC Power.  Using a Lionel 180 Power House.  The power drops are about 8 feet away from each other.  So should I extend each drop to the distribution board?  I've always only had one set of wires coming from the Transformer to the TIU and the TIU to the dist board... So don't daisy chain the drops?  

Attached is where all the drops are.  

yessir, PH180 to TIU to Dist Board. A 12 terminal should be just fine.  Where are the blocks isolated?

No, do not daisy chain - terminal board to feed point only

@John H:

The middle feed with little electron theory sounds good - but, don't those little buggers like going one way or the other?

You know, if it works, it works.

As stated by others above, with DCS you definitely want to create blocks (isolated sections) of track (10-12 track joints per block). Isolate the center rail between each block. They refer to this as a 'star pattern' (as opposed to bus wiring, 'daisy chain'). Feed each block in the center of the block with a pair of wires, one to center rail (red, hot) and one to outside rail (black, common) and wire them back to the 'distribution terminal block. For me it was easiest to use an MTH terminal block, they are specifically made for wiring DCS systems and work great, very easy, no crimp connectors needed, just hook up the wires.

Also note that Atlas track does not have anything built in to connect the two outside rails, they are totally separate. So make sure you use the same outside rail at each power feed or jumper the outside rails together. Many like to leave one outside rail for signaling, operating accessories (isolated rail) and other things. This is what I did on my layout, left one outside rail separate and not connected to common.

It looks like you have two loops of track, so it might also be a good idea to separate the loops at the crossovers and power one with one TIU channel and the second with another TIU channel. I did that here as well. If you currently have only one PH-180 for power, I would wire for two separate loops and power supplies and then just jumper the two TIU inputs at the TIU for now until you need to add the second one in the future. I would use one MTH terminal block for each loop. Much easier to wire this way now than to have to go back and change things later. From each MTH terminal block you would wire on pair of wire back to the TIU channel for the appropriate loop.

Another note, if you do expand to two power supplies you should power your TIU from the AUX port using a totally separate power supply. If you only use the one PH-180 FXD In 1 has to be powered to power the TIU, unless you are already [planning to use the AUX port with separate power supply.

I would also isolate the center rail of each siding or spur, also mentioned above I think, and feed those with a pair of wires to the siding or spur. In those feed wires I would install a SPST (On/Off) switch somewhere near your 'control center' or other easy access point where you will spend most of your time running trains. That way you can park engines and turn off the power to keep the hours/on time from accumulating while they just sit there. 

If you don't have Barry's book, I would order a copy of that as well. It's worth every penny and also describes all this wiring much better than I do. It's also a reference you will refer to time and again over the years, at least I do anyway.

Hope I didn't further confuse the issue for you and this somewhat makes sense. Creating blocks as I tried to describe eliminated all of my DCS errors and problems. Haven't had one in a few years, that is unless it was something stupid I did myself... I also use Atlas track and switches and have been very happy with all of it, FWIW.

Moonman posted:

 @John H:

The middle feed with little electron theory sounds good - but, don't those little buggers like going one way or the other?

I have mine that way and it works perfectly here, they go both ways. I think that is also in Barry's book and is probably where I got the idea. I tried to follow his book for wiring the entire layout here, and it really did/does work! I had DCS problems before and Barry sure made a believer out of me! 

rtr12 posted:

As stated by others above, with DCS you definitely want to create blocks (isolated sections) of track (10-12 track joints per block).Isolate the center rail between each block. They refer to this as a 'star pattern' (as opposed to bus wiring, 'daisy chain'). Feed each block in the center of the block with a pair of wires, one to center rail (red, hot) and one to outside rail (black, common) and wire them back to the 'distribution terminal block. For me it was easiest to use an MTH terminal block, they are specifically made for wiring DCS systems and work great, very easy, no crimp connectors needed, just hook up the wires.

Also note that Atlas track does not have anything built in to connect the two outside rails, they are totally separate. So make sure you use the same outside rail at each power feed or jumper the outside rails together. Many like to leave one outside rail for signaling, operating accessories (isolated rail) and other things. This is what I did on my layout, left one outside rail separate and not connected to common.

 

Thanks for your experience RTR.

Daisy chain would be going from the terminal block to point A, then, from point to B, then from point B to point C and on. That is not the same a BUS WIRING.

I have found that the common on both rails provides a higher reliability. When an isolated outside rail is needed, it is easy enough to create one, or create one now in the planning process. However, with methods like IR and reed switch triggering, one may not need an isolated rail.

@Moonman & @rtr12 THANK YOU!!! This is huge help!!

Yup I've isolated the track into sections.  There's plastic  isolators in the center rail where all the purple marks are.  See the updated image.

Alot of the the terminal drops are close together.  Would it be possible to wire maybe 2 drops together and feed it to the DB?  I wouldn't do more than 2, but thought it might save time.  I just want to do it right..

MAN.. wiring those switches are a PITA!!!!  

Moonman,

Poor wording on my part with the 'daisy chain' I meant bus or daisy chain. Was thinking I read daisy chain mentioned in an earlier post and just threw it in to try and avoid confusion (rather than causing more).

I left out tying the outer rails together to avoid confusion as well. Although some do recommend doing that. I didn't tie my outer rails together and everything works fine here (similar layout), although I probably should have at least said something about tying them together.

Thanks for the assist and clarifications. 

UP SD70 posted:

@Moonman & @rtr12 THANK YOU!!! This is huge help!!

Yup I've isolated the track into sections.  There's plastic  isolators in the center rail where all the purple marks are.  See the updated image.

Alot of the the terminal drops are close together.  Would it be possible to wire maybe 2 drops together and feed it to the DB?  I wouldn't do more than 2, but thought it might save time.  I just want to do it right..

MAN.. wiring those switches are a PITA!!!!  

You are most welcome. Hopefully I didn't add to the confusion. Looks like a nice layout and track plan too, mine is similar, but a bit smaller.

Personally, I would wire each block separately, I know that works. I have a similar layout to yours and did mine that way, it works very well. I had some block connections that were only a few inches apart too. Also it's easier to do now than to go back later and have to rewire things if you should have any problems. It's a little more work and a little more wire, but you may someday be thankful you took the extra steps now.

Also at some point you may want to have your two loops of track separate and power them separately. If you use two terminal MTH blocks, one for each loop it will be very easy to do that. Will help in trouble shooting as well as you can isolate the loops. Of course you would also need to isolate the center rails in the crossovers between loops.

Barry's book, The DCS Companion (3rd edition) describes layout wiring starting on page 58. Page 60 shows a diagram of what I was trying to say about separating your loops of track. I didn't try to find it but I am also pretty sure it recommends connecting your power to the center of your blocks. It did say something like no more than 5-6 track sections on either side of your block power connection.

Might be worth taking a look if you have the book. If you don't have it I would highly recommend getting a copy. It explains all this in much more detail than I could unless I quoted the book word for word. 

UP SD70 posted:

@John C. How do you wire your layout if you're not a fan of Jumper wires?  

Wire it into blocks. You can use either Atlas selectors or make a really cool control panel and use sdpt switches. Those are exactly the same things that are on the atlas selector. Make each block no longer than about 20 feet. It's good to do this anyway because when you experience an electrical issue it's much more efficient way to trace and locate it. If you put jumper wires all over the place and have a short you'll be looking at every inch of your track. If you have a block you'll be looking within about 20 ft. Also if you go the selector route it gives you the option of choosing which power source powers of particular section of track. Major advantage 2 blocks. If you go on my YouTube channel on the glacier line and search for the video involving the use of blocks it's better explain there.

rtr12 posted:

UP SD70 posted:

@Moonman & @rtr12 THANK YOU!!! This is huge help!!

Yup I've isolated the track into sections.  There's plastic  isolators in the center rail where all the purple marks are.  See the updated image.

Alot of the the terminal drops are close together.  Would it be possible to wire maybe 2 drops together and feed it to the DB?  I wouldn't do more than 2, but thought it might save time.  I just want to do it right..

MAN.. wiring those switches are a PITA!!!!  You are most welcome. Hopefully I didn't add to the confusion. Looks like a nice layout and track plan too, mine is similar, but a bit smaller.

Personally, I would wire each block separately, I know that works. I have a similar layout to yours and did mine that way, it works very well. I had some block connections that were only a few inches apart too. Also it's easier to do now than to go back later and have to rewire things if you should have any problems. It's a little more work and a little more wire, but you may someday be thankful you took the extra steps now.

Also at some point you may want to have your two loops of track separate and power them separately. If you use two terminal MTH blocks, one for each loop it will be very easy to do that. Will help in trouble shooting as well as you can isolate the loops. Of course you would also need to isolate the center rails in the crossovers between loops.

Barry's book, The DCS Companion (3rd edition) describes layout wiring starting on page 58. Page 60 shows a diagram of what I was trying to say about separating your loops of track. I didn't try to find it but I am also pretty sure it recommends connecting your power to the center of your blocks. It did say something like no more than 5-6 track sections on either side of your block power connection.

Might be worth taking a look if you have the book. If you don't have it I would highly recommend getting a copy. It explains all this in much more detail than I could unless I quoted the book word for word. 

Yes.. I'm using 2 Lionel 180W Powerhouses, and a small MTH Z-500 for the switches and a few lit items.

That is exactly just what I have as well. I use one PH-180 per loop (FXD-1 & FXD-2) and power my TIU with the Z500. Only difference is I power the switches and accessory lighting with a Z1000. You can still do what you are doing and get an inexpensive wall wart to power your TIU, probably $5 or so on ebay or Amazon, maybe less. The wall wart rating is also specified in Barry's book, but I can look it up for you if need be. I believe it needs to be between 12-18 (or 20) volts and at least 1.5 amps from memory, but I would look it up to be sure before making a purchase.

The only thing I see is that you might have to shorten some of your blocks to stay within the 10-12 track joints rule. I can't tell how many track pieces there ae from the picture. If so that would  mean a couple of extra blocks. Also use good quality stranded copper wire. Monoprice has some very nice wire that forum member Gilly posted a link for a while back. I used OGR wire, but I don't think they have that any longer. Monoprice wire looks the same and is all copper, very nice. Maybe even a little less in cost. I am using that for any further expansions I do. IMO, the wire and wiring is pretty important and it's the last place you want to skimp or cut corners.

Forum member Ingeniero No1 came up with a great way to attach power wires to Atlas track. I used his methods on my layout and can post a link to his info if you are interested. No soldering, track joiners wires, etc. He just screws the wire right to the track after drilling a small hole, using the #16 wire like OGR had or Monoprice has. It doesn't show if put in the right place and works great. Also very easy to change of you ever need to move something here and there. 

And John C. adds more to the need for blocks above. I like the toggles at the central control areas, but the Atlas connectors or selectors(?) are fine too, just get the HD (heavy duty) for our higher amperages (although I am not sure there is a great difference between the two?).  Toggles you can easily find with 10 amp (or more) ratings, so I went with those. They are not all that expensive.

There are lots of great info and tips around here, as well as very knowledgeable folks!

Having some issues.. 

My TIU doesn't see my locomotives.. (I cleared them out when I put this layout together.)

At first, the DCS Remote didn't even recognize the TIU.. then I plugged my Z-500 transformer into it, and then it worked.. but it's not recognizing my locomotives.. I tried it at several blocks on my track.. I have about 5 blocks on the outer loop, which is where I put the train.  

Little frustrated here.. I've used DCS before, and it worked seamlessly.. Now I can't get it to do anything.

I took a pic of my setup in case anyone spots anything.. Please let me know.

Check the track for voltage

I see the PH180 power light is on, but I cannot tell if the TIU power on indicator is lit - if it is not check the fuse inside the TIU

Check for voltage at the two main terminal board connectors from the TIU

I thought the wires from the TIU to the terminal board would connect underneath the nut. Those pictured appear to be going in from the top.

Moonman posted:

Check the track for voltage

I see the PH180 power light is on, but I cannot tell if the TIU power on indicator is lit - if it is not check the fuse inside the TIU

Check for voltage at the two main terminal board connectors from the TIU

I thought the wires from the TIU to the terminal board would connect underneath the nut. Those pictured appear to be going in from the top.

I guess I'll have to get a voltage meter.

There is a red LED light on in the bottom right of the TIU.  When the power is applied, it blinks once and then stays lit red.  

I checked the fuses.. 

On the terminal board, there is a little square clamp underneath the head of each screw..  I have each wire underneath those.  (at least I thought that's how it went.

Just so I'm not crazy... 

MIDDLE rail is Positive (which is where I have the red wire)

OUTER rail is negative (which is where I have the black wire)

I use the Atlas terminal joiners that have the black joiner with the red wire, and the silver joiner for the black wire.  

I also used 14 and 16 gauge wire copper stranded wire.

Since you erased all of your engines from your remote and than you had problems locating your TIU, so there may be a compatibility issue between the program on your remote and the program on the TIU.  Did you upgrade both at the same time and are they on the same upgrade?  If not there is may be a communication issue.  Go to MTH website and make sure that they are programed to same program and your issue should be resolved.  This is a tricky issue and there are multiple discussions on this site where incompatibility between the remote and the TIU were the culprits.

All good now. 

Ended up being a severed wire as well as a crossed wire. There was an Atlad terminal joiner that had the red to the silver clip and the black to the black clip. 

Thanks for the help everyone. 

The wiring and such all sounded good. Glad you found the issue. TA-DAH!

Seems to be more than one.. where the Atlas had the wrong color wire to the opposite color joiner.. so I was just going by the red and black wire, and ended up crossing wires...  Got 2 loops in.  

Did a test run... 

SMOOOTH!  YOUR SMOKIN'!!!

Roadbed and Atlas sure is quiet.

Lucky for me I have a GA Tech Alum that's an electrical engineer, next door.  I asked to borrow one of his 7 volt meters, and he asked what the problem was. 

EML posted:

Since you erased all of your engines from your remote and than you had problems locating your TIU, so there may be a compatibility issue between the program on your remote and the program on the TIU.  Did you upgrade both at the same time and are they on the same upgrade?  If not there is may be a communication issue.  Go to MTH website and make sure that they are programed to same program and your issue should be resolved.  This is a tricky issue and there are multiple discussions on this site where incompatibility between the remote and the TIU were the culprits.

The remote displays 6.0 when it turns on.  Not sure about the TIU..  I wouldn't mind updating it. I bought the remote and TIU bundled together only a year ago. So I'm sure the TIU is pretty up to date.  I know the most recent version is 6.10.