Wiring Lionel signals to s-gauge track?

Have you looked at the activation products from Quickar on Ebay?

Ray

I've got 2 Lionel 450's triggered by Z Stuff sensors on my S gauge layout. Dependable and trouble free.

Rich

banjoflyer posted:

Check out Z-stuff for trains. They have lots of sensors for HO/S/O scale trains.

This page shows lots of applications.

Don't forget 3 rail trains are still like 2 rail trains...they just have a second (common) ground rail.

 

 

Mark

Yes Mark, but it's that extra ground rail that makes all the difference, when trying to detect trains and operate accessories. Two rail trains require some kind electronic intervention, as you've pointed out, to achieve this.

The Lionel 450 signal bridge only contains wiring to the two pairs of lights - no internal relays or sensing electronics, etc. (based on my 450 bridge...), so one needs to have an external set of relays, etc. to - say - turn off the green light and light the red light and vice versa.  Those relays (one for each pair of lights) would, in turn be triggered by sensors - one close to the signal bridge to flip the green to red and then one further away to flip red to green - presumably to indicate the 'block' is clear.  'Back in the day', Gilbert used to use mechanical 'track trips', where the weight of the engine would close the contacts and, when hooked up to the old Flyer 761 semaphore, would power a solenoid that mechanically changed the position of the semaphore flag.  That same solenoid also would disconnect power to an isolated section of track to provide train control (stopping a following train).  The second track trip then powered the solenoid (actually it is/was two back-to-back solenoids moving a common plunger) to move the semaphore arm back to green and restore power to the isolated section.  All of those 50's era electro-mechanical controls are now replaced by electronics (arguably much more reliable).

So as Mark and Ray noted, there are third party sensors and electronics available to do this (all independent of the scale of the trains).  Lionel makes a sensor/relay combination - 153IR - but I haven't used one, so I only know that it is listed in their catalog.  I don't know whether this relay will control both the red/green lights and power to the track block, if indeed that is what you want to do.

These topics have been discussed here in the past - should be able to turn them up in a search.  There's also an abundance of help here, including advice about building your own circuits, etc.

- Rich

Rayin"S" posted:

Have you looked at the activation products from Quickar on Ebay?

Ray

Holy Toledo Ray ! Quickar's website is a plethora of of model train electronics including train detectors and flasher assemblies. Thanks for the tip.

Steve

Steve, happy to be of help to you.

Ray

Wow, you guys are always so helpful. These posts above make my day. Will immerse myself in all this great info and get what I need. Thanks.

Here’s an update folks. After checking out all of the cool sensor options mentioned above, I decided to purchase a Lionel 153IR sensor/relay from my local model train store (which in this day of EBay and other on-line retail, needs all the help we can offer). I installed it on my layout yesterday and wired it to one side of my 450 signal bridge and, voila, the signal lights now work as intended! I especially like the timing adjustment on the 153IR that controls the lag time before the relay shifts power from the red signal light back to the green one (from ‘NO’ back to ‘NC’).

Had a little bit of a learning curve, as I assumed initially that the Common (-) post on the signal bridge should be connected to the Ground output terminal on the 153IR. But after a little research on this forum, I found a wiring diagram that showed the Common post on the signal bridge connects to the ‘hot’ (ACC Pwr) output on the 153IR. So, I switched that wire from ground to power output and, Bingo, instant satisfaction, followed by hours of marveling at how great it is to have my first fully automated accessory on my layout. 

Now I’m going to grab another 153IR to control the other signal on the 450, and maybe a couple more for other accessories! 

Happy as a clam in a ‘no shellfish harvest’ zone. So, many thanks, again, for your help. 

Ken

Ken - congrats on the success.  A question about the 153IR - from your description, it looks like the sensor/relay itself resets the red to green - as opposed to having another sensor further down the track to trigger that reset??  A second question - does the 153IR also have the capability of controlling a track block - e.g. so a switch from green to red would also depower the block the train just left?

- Rich

richs09 posted:

Ken - congrats on the success.  A question about the 153IR - from your description, it looks like the sensor/relay itself resets the red to green - as opposed to having another sensor further down the track to trigger that reset??  A second question - does the 153IR also have the capability of controlling a track block - e.g. so a switch from green to red would also depower the block the train just left?

- Rich

The origin of the 153IR is Lionel's modern update of the old 153 contactor pressure plate, SPDT switch from the postwar era. This gives you the ability to  do red / green signals.

I've never used one, but I understand how they work. When the unit detects the train, the relay inside is activated. There's a timing circuit that you can adjust for how long the relay stays active before it returns to is relaxed state. For the purposes of this discussion, how long the signal stays red.

As for controlling track power, I'm not sure if the relay contacts are rated for that kind of current. You could accomplish that by having the unit drive a second larger relay to be safe.

• richs09 posted:

Ken - congrats on the success.  A question about the 153IR - from your description, it looks like the sensor/relay itself resets the red to green - as opposed to having another sensor further down the track to trigger that reset??  A second question - does the 153IR also have the capability of controlling a track block - e.g. so a switch from green to red would also depower the block the train just left?

- Rich

Rich, Elliot’s message is right on target; indeed, the sensor relay sets red to green following a lag period after the last train car has completely passed the sensor. When part of the train is in front of the sensor, it blocks and reflects back to the sensor the infra-red beam emitted by the sensor — signal switches from powering green bulb to powering red bulb, instead. Once train has passed the sensor, IR beam is no longer reflected back to the sensor and the sensor starts its lag phase; when the lag time is complete  — signal switches power from red bulb to green bulb. 

As for controlling a track block, my understanding is the sensor relay can only handle 1 or 2 amps, but as Elliot points out, you could use the sensor to power an external relay that could handle the amps needed to run the train. Then you could use the 153IR to power the train when the train passes by the sensor (I.e., the sensor could power the block the train is entering and then the sensor would shut that block down once the train passes the sensor and lag time is finished). 

I just purchased an M.T.H. Railking Crossing Gate Signal (30-11012) and am planning to wire that into the same 153IR I’m using to control my signal bridge — so when the train activates the sensor, the signal bridge will switch power from green to red and the crossing gate will lower at the same time. Not sure how many amps the crossing gate draws, so we’ll see if the 153IR can handle both accessories.

Ken

Brief update.  My 153IR sensor relay could activate either the signal bridge or the crossing gate when wired to one or the other, but not both at the same time. 

Ken - You say that the 153IR device won't activate both the signal bridge and crossing gate together - is that due to limitations on the current load that the built-in relay can handle?  Your previous post noted that one could use the built-in relay to power a larger external relay which, presumably could handle both the signal bridge light and the crossing gate loads combined - or am I missing something (else)?