Would you pay more to see Made In The USA

As I stated a few pages ago, there is a lot of money coming into the country from elsewhere because the US is involved in major projects in foreign countries.  The people here don't see that.  Infrastructures like power plants, transit systems, buildings, etc.  Tens to hundred of millions of dollars come back into the country from these projects.  This buys a lot of trains.

Also, the old manufacturing in the US is done.  Any new manufacturing in the US will use modern technology which only require a fraction of the people that were needed years ago.  You can see that now in the new plants that are built recently.

I would pay more if the product meets my needs.  If it doesn't, I don't.  It doesn't matter where it comes from.  My definition of need may be different than yours.

I've noticed that there seems to be an extreme measure of comparison between the old and the new as if to suggest the old reliable trains were, unfortunately, mechanical, clunky, and unrealistic by today's standards.  This seems to be the downside of the old trains.  But no one is comparing old trains with new ones per se.  The comparison is in the quality standards used in their manufacture.  Sure the older trains suffer in many ways by comparison to the new; but there is no reason why the old ways of taking the time to produce a good engine or car, considering the state of art at that time, cannot be used today when considering the marvelous technology that exists.  Make the most detailed and technologically advanced engines you can, but make them GOOD.  I like to have my layout look realistic, even more so for others rather than myself.  That may seem strange.  But I can tolerate deviations from scale and realism.  When more sophisticated train buffs see my layout, sometimes I feel that I have to apologize for these inaccuracies and lack of detail.  At first, I even displayed a sign stating that my layout WAS NOT a model railroad.  Rather it was a toy train of the 1950's with tubular track, Plasticville, etc. just so people would not make the comparison with more accurate displays.  Of course, I've incorporated more recent items, but basically it is still a toy train display.  I intend to keep it that way and have given-up on apologies and am not as self conscious about it.  One of things I've learned over the past several years as I have re-entered the hobby, is that quality rather than appearance makes me more happier.  And so, I really haven't got into the expensive digital trains yet.  As time goes on and manufacturers see that the dwindling train market is demanding more quality control, maybe the products will become more reliable.  Then, I'll buy.

Its great to have a choice!

I, haven't had ANY serious problems with any of the American made vehicles that my wife and I currently own, all purchased new:

2006 Dodge Dakota

2007 Jeep Commander

2012 Ram 1500 (HEMI)

2014 Chevy Sonic

They have all been great vehicles and I have no regrets in purchasing any of them.

Jim

I agree that quality in general has decreased greatly in the past decade or two. It's not just in trains or cars either. It is endemic in almost every product or service today.

I have just been preparing my dinner, and noticed that I am still using many utensils that I purchased over 20 years ago when I lived in the USA. (Almost every one is stamped 'Made in USA' too.) I then looked at the newer items that I have purchased, and I realised that many of these have been replaced several times, and none of these are made to the same level of quality, even though they may have cost the same.

The same is true of clothing too. I still have some clothes that are well over 20 years old, and will certainly outlast me. They are made from quality material, and are well constructed. Yet clothes that I have bought in the past decade rarely last for a few years before they wear out or fall apart. 

Sadly, I think that the 'blame' for this must really lie with us as consumers. As has been mentioned previously, we demand lower prices all of the time, and higher wages too. Therefore sacrifices must be made at some point of the manufacturing process.

Unfortunately, this 'cost-cutting' has now reached the stage in many areas where poor quality is now the standard, and because so much manufacturing has been relocated to other countries where costs are lower, we are now unable to manufacture many items domestically at anything close to the quality or price point that the average consumer will pay. 

If we are not prepared to pay for a quality product, made with quality materials and constructed with skill and care, then no manufacture is going to be able to provide them.

We are our own worst enemies in so many respects.

There are many people quite willing to pay higher prices for quality; but, unfortunately, higher prices do not automatically translate into higher quality in many instances.  The perception that "you get what you pay for," is no longer accurate.  You can still get crap for a high price.

"So how does one trade evenly with a country that makes nothing of their own we need but has the ability to assemble American based products cheaper then can be produced here?

And, while doing it, competes unfairly in the global economy with us by copying the design to replicate it themselves for others."

I believe you are combining two entirely different subjects to make your point. But to answer your question as best I can, any theft of our product designs would negate any further dealings with the violating country. Unfortunately, our country has forgotten how to carry a "big Stick" a long time ago in this regard.

The sad fact is, manufacturing as we knew it won't be coming back.  Modern technology has supplanted much of the manual labor required to assemble an item, and it takes a lot more skill and training to operate modern machinery than it did years ago.  I tell young people to get a college education, and it better be a STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) major, or chances are, they'll be flipping burgers or greeting shoppers at Wal-Mart.  

But to answer the question, will I buy something just because it says "Made in the USA"?  Sorry, but the answer is no.

Yes and only if all the parts and assembly were done in the USA. That means no parts can come from anywhere other then then here. Consequently, this is a stupid question becauase it is impossible for that to happen.

Where I work, we source parts and material both domestically and internationally.(Try to find micro-processors made in the USA nowadays...)  All our engineering and design probably 80% domestic, 20% European.  We have two assembly plants in the U.S and several located around the world in order to be closer to our international customers.

Rusty

quote:

 tell young people to get a college education, and it better be a STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) major, or chances are, they'll be flipping burgers or greeting shoppers at Wal-Mart. 

Thanks to programs like H1-B, they might wind up flipping burgers, or making the same salaries in their choosen fields anyway.

It isn't like INS hasn't tried to change the rules.  But it's the same thing as IRS and the 501(c)4 debacle.  There is a process required by law to change regulations (regardless of how fubar they are) and a lot of dark money is being funneled to a few politicians to keep the process stalled.

INS is well aware companies are doing an end run around the rules and they can do nothing about it.

Is that Mr Muffin in the 3rd picture of Lcca photos? Looks like Steve to me 

Yes,  that photo was taken during an LCCA Special Event held at Mr. Muffins. train store in Carmel IN. 

Al K.

I like the STEM nomenclature

I was just telling my kids at Dinner the other night about it.

My sister in law went for an ARTS degree graduated and is now working...yep no lie at Starbucks. She has been there a couple years now and she has been offered management training by them.

PersonallyI would love to own a coffee shop

I started out in the hobby with a Lionel switcher set I got when I was maybe 7.  Ran it on an oval on the ping pong table.  Sometimes I'd give it too much throttle and it would fly off onto the linoleum basement floor.  Plastic parts broke off but it still runs today (43 years later).  Compared to my collection of two dozen or so mostly MTH premier engines I'd say the newer engines are higher quality.  My new Railking switcher has more detail, die cast trucks, engineer figure, digital sound (as opposed to nothing) and directional lighting.  The Lionel trucks were stamped steel, no die cast, plastic instead of metal couplers.  An electro mechanical reverse unit that didn't always work properly.

My son's and I have been back in the hobby since their grandfather gave them a Lionel steamer starter set 12 years ago.  Since then we've gone from conventional controlled Railking to DCS control and Premier.  They have never asked to run the "old" Lionel engines because they lack realism and features.  These are the 'qualities' we personally and I think most NEW O-scale hobbyist desire.  If Lionel and MTH only offered simple to manufacture, low featured, sub-scale trains like my and my son's first sets we would have lost interest and not still be in the hobby today.  Thus we wouldn't be spending are hard earned money on highly detailed, realistic operating, relatively reliable models, track, accessories, and scenery today.  And without new (to replace old) regular customer purchases, it would be difficult for O-gauge manufacturers, retailers and publications like OGR to prosper.

We've got more than a few Forumites who do not make this country home.  Guys and gals from Canada...Australia...England... The Netherlands.  Maybe we should ask them. Is it important that your trains be "Made in the USA?"  Does it bother you they are made in Korea or China?  Would you be more willing to pay higher prices if they were made in your own country.  A factory in Sheffield?  Or Melbourne?  Or Windsor?  

Personally, I like to think I'd be willing to pay a little more for a US made product.  How much more?  Boy, that's hard to say without knowing whether there would be a real corresponding impact to the economy and the middle class.

- Mike

Well, as a Canadian in Canada I would like to see trains made here. But, of course, that is nonsense.  Lionel Trains were never made here. 

I would be willing to pay more for USA made trains if it would employ Americans, and not foreign workers.  How much more?   Perhaps 25-30% more  but not 75-100% more.

After four pages it comes down to this,

Manufacting of our trains will not come back to America anytime soon. A few maybe to keep the masses happy but that is it.

Profits trump everything and wherever it is cheaper to mfg. then that will be the place they are made. 

This topic comes up every so often and the answer is the same, not going to happen, get used to it.

As I recall, Rapido Trains once posted a year or so ago on their blog it would increase costs about 30%.  Plus, there wasn't anybody in Canada that could decorate their product as good as the Chinese manufacturers.

Rusty

Ahh, you say you're willing to pay up to 30% more, but the significant question is, would you also buy in the same quantity as you have before the 30% increase?

If you say yes, you'd probably be in the minority and that would be the driving reason why production will remain outsourced.  If you say no, then that still would give the key players that much less incentive to move production stateside.

How many jobs would a measly buisness like toy train manufacturing create anyway, 100

It would make far more sense to make something EVERYONE wants/needs like computers or TV's here.......besides, has everyone forgotten why train manufacturing ended up overseas anyway?

If it were to happen, you "folks' make sure you jump at the chance to get those $10 an hour  tedious and monotonous assembly jobs. I'm not sure how many of the trains you make you'll be able to afford however.......especially after the price increase.

Most of "us" are afraid to remove the shell on our loco, good luck putting one together from scratch. I suppose todays college grads might be interested...yeah... right.

Next topic......poor QC and postponed delivery dates.

No, I would not pay more for US made trains.

RickO seems to be having too much fun being condescending to realize that almost EVERY topic on a forum such as this is a rehash in some way, shape, or form of something that's been covered previously...there aren't a lot of completely new topics.

The bottom line is that there is still a lot of manufacturing here in the US, and the economic landscape isn't stagnant by any means. Who knows what the result of a discussion can be? Perhaps Weaver gets a small uptick in sales every time this comes up, and maybe it results in just ONE JOB staying here. isn't that worthwhile? I'd rather gain one hundred jobs than to see one hundred jobs disappear, even if the larger world doesn't notice.

American consumers have more power than they realize--and their buying decisions add up in ways that aren't always readily apparent in the short term.

It is possible to make trains in America--we know this because it is being done here right now, by companies that are making a choice to build models here. These companies will only survive if the market allows them to survive--and we are the market. If those companies thrive it's our fault.

Economics is a science, but it's also a belief system, and people have a bad habit of forgetting that most problems are created by people, which means those same problems are solvable by people who decide the problem is worth solving. 

The goal of every business is premium pricing, maximum margins, and a simple business model. We have to understand that a business needs to make profit to survive, but consumers have rights too, and in reality consumers dictate what will happen in an economy. If consumers decide that buying product made in America is important, then companies will have to accommodate that desire, or face losing business to someone who can satisfy the market. If consumers decided that every MTH diesel had to have 20 different sets of couplers, then MTH would be forced to do it or abandon the market.

And finally, before I step off my soapbox, let me tell you all that I think the rampant pricing rationalizing going on here is silly...this idea that nobody will buy American because it costs too much.

How much is an O scale RS-3 worth? There is is more than one right answer. Scott Mann knows how much an O scale F-unit is worth, but there are plenty of people who disagree with him. Let me illustrate my point better. How much is an HO scale RS-3 worth? The HO Bachmann model had a street price that was around $65.00. Division Point had RS-3 models made in HO scale that are currently selling in the $900.00 range.

So the answer is that a HO RS-3 is worth somewhere between $65.00 and $979.00 ...and if that makes sense to you then I'm sure you can make a strong argument as to why an American made product would be "too expensive"....

Jeff C

A choice, with even somewhat equal quality? Of coarse Id help feed my neighbor (or ally) first! I find the indifference of those who don't to be disturbingly self centered. What a shame. 

I would and do seek out products made in the USA. I do my research, and if it is available i do it. My opinion is that you might pay more but you are getting a higher quality product, and stimulating the US economy a little bit.

Beyond which, to me, both buying in the USA and "buying local" reduce the amount of transportation - airplanes, ships, trucks, and yes, trains - that need to be used to move stuff around the planet.  I know there is an environmental impact burning all that fossil fuel to move toy trains from China and fresh roses from Peru to here, but its mostly the inefficiency of it that gets me: why, when we could just make it here and save all the fuel, time, and labor?

Rolls had a tendency to breakdown. Luxury cars are notoriously bad. The quality cars came from Japan and Korea.

Been buying quality American made trains all along, and at really good prices too. But then the makers of the trains I have been buying are no longer in business.

Sadly Marx and original Lionel trains have outlived their creators.

I guess my employer's just as inefficient with making industrial controls here and shipping them to Britain, Europe, the Middle East and Asia.

And I'm pretty sure we ship a heck of a lot more than Lionel and MTH combined...

Rusty

I will pay more if it is made better. I use to be more concerned about the conditions under which the products were made, but that burden is on the workers and manufacturers. Eventually there will be change on their end like there was change here. The wages will go up and the manufacturing will move on  or cease.

I can not see paying 80.00 or more dollars for an ABS Plastic freight car.

Wages have not even come close to keeping up with increases in the cost of everything. As an example, cars cost 10+X what they did 40 years ago, but wages really haven't gone up much more than 4-5X

Meanwhile, companies are doing what they must to survive, thrive, and make as much money as possible. That's the whole point, isn't it?

As more and more products, gadgets, toys hit the market, your income isn't growing to match, so the only way companies have to get more out of you is to make things cheaper and charge lower prices.

If this were Hippiecommieland, we'd all have top-quality USA made things at the same prices we pay for the lesser quality Chinese products we have now. The big companies would "fall on their swords" losing millions upon millions of dollars to bring you these products in the name of duty and country... But, it doesn't work like that.

Ultimately... Would I pay more? Probably not. I'd simply do without.

In a word, YES

I have all the issued President cars and the new crop on order.

I have the ARMY cars from Lionel.

I also have a set of Weaver cars on order.

IF and only IF people buy these cars, they will make more here.

Want manufacturing in the USA? Then Buy the ones that ARE made here.

Very simple, and it works. They WILL follow the money.

They are not making the cars I want, the cars Lionel is making are just starter set cars. If they made scale sized cars with the detail I expect I would buy them, but for now they are not.

I do buy from Weaver the cars I like. 

The companies that make stuff in the USA have to offer what I want in the first place in order for that to happen. 

I have no desire for the Lionel presidential boxcars, and apart from Weaver's 57' mechanical refidgerator cars, I no longer have interest in the remaining made in USA products they have as most of it is from tooling that's over 30 years old and don't match the detail of scale premium offerings from Atlas O's master line, MTH or Lionel.   So unless they offer rolling stock, roadnames & roadnumbers that I want with detail that's up to today's standards, there will be no sale I'm afraid.