ZW tripping breaker due to lighting

400 volts?

Guessing you are overloading the circuit amp wise. Don't think the hot terminal is a good thing. Normally that's a red flag of an issue.

Your method of calculating electrical units is faulty.

I assume that your stated voltage totals are based on a misunderstanding of how to do the calculations. We do not add up the number of lamps and then multiply by the supply voltage. Is that what you did? That is meaningless for determining if the supply is adequate.

However, your current total of about 13 amps is a useful starting point to see what the problem is.  Assuming that you are delivering 14 volts to the lamps, multiply that times the amperage, and we get 182 watts.  A ZW can deliver about 180 or so watts on a good day.  (Its 275 watt rating is its INPUT power. It's probably ~70% efficient.)

You would be better served, if you really want to use that many incandescent lamps, rather than switching over to LED's (which use a fifth to a seventh of the current to provide the same amount of light) to get yourself a 12-volt output landscaping transformer from a big box store or an electrical supplier.

If you were to use wire of a higher capacity (say 16 gauge) you would be pushing less current to achieve the same brightness, assuming some small but measurable voltage drop. If you split the wiring up so that it is provided via all 4 output binding posts, that will cure the hot post problem, but it will not cure the basic problem of too many lamps for the transformer to handle.

So, the choices are: switch to some, or all, LED's, or get a bigger transformer.  Landscape transformers are available in 40 Watt to 600 Watt versions, but they are big and expensive. LED's are cheap and are the better choice, IMHO.

I'm guessing you added the voltages together. It doesn't work that way. It does work that way for the current, so you had the right idea there. However, both towers are wired in a parallel/series scheme, so the current is half of what you came up with as pairs on bulbs are strung together. So, using your numbers, 9.6A + 3.5A = 13.1A, and we we take into account the wiring scheme, it's around 6.6A.

The transformer will put out whatever voltage you set it for, regardless of the amps required, up to point. The ZW is rated for 250 watts. It's actually less, but let's use 250. Watts is the result of multiplying Amps with Volts. If you connect enough stuff, the current goes up to a point where the math exceeds 250W and then the  voltage drops until the math for the current draw and voltage come down to the 250 again. When a direct short wants all the current, the voltage ends up at 0.

The watts required for you lights can be calculated by multiplying the Amps and Volts. If we require 7.6A and you are setting the transformer for 12 volts, that's 7.6 x 12 =  91.2 watts. The ZW should be able to handle that, unless the breaker is faulty. That's a possibility, considering the age if the breaker is original. Another possibility is a tower has a partial short.

You say you know little about electricity, but a Volt-Amp-Ohm meter is less expensive than most of your trains, and it's not that difficult to handle the basics of it to troubleshoot things like this. Plus, there are enough people on here to walk you thorough - I think you should give it a try.

@Jeff B. Haertlein posted:

I am powering 8 of the #195 8-bulb flood lights; and four of the # 395 flood lights.

You are powering 80 ~3.5 watt bulbs, requiring 200 watts nominally, with a ZW that is capable of 178-180 watts continuous watts output. 275 watts is the input rating.

You could easily power these with a used computer power supply. Most have over 300 watts rating at 12 vdc, and the lights will work on dc. You can get them for $30 or less.

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Your method of calculating electrical units is faulty.

I assume that your stated voltage totals are based on a misunderstanding of how to do the calculations. We do not add up the number of lamps and then multiply by the supply voltage. Is that what you did? That is meaningless for determining if the supply is adequate.

However, your current total of about 13 amps is a useful starting point to see what the problem is.  Assuming that you are delivering 14 volts to the lamps, multiply that times the amperage, and we get 182 watts.  A ZW can deliver about 180 or so watts on a good day.  (Its 275 watt rating is its INPUT power. It's probably ~70% efficient.)

You would be better served, if you really want to use that many incandescent lamps, rather than switching over to LED's (which use a fifth to a seventh of the current to provide the same amount of light) to get yourself a 12-volt output landscaping transformer from a big box store or an electrical supplier.

If you were to use wire of a higher capacity (say 16 gauge) you would be pushing less current to achieve the same brightness, assuming some small but measurable voltage drop. If you split the wiring up so that it is provided via all 4 output binding posts, that will cure the hot post problem, but it will not cure the basic problem of too many lamps for the transformer to handle.

So, the choices are: switch to some, or all, LED's, or get a bigger transformer.  Landscape transformers are available in 40 Watt to 600 Watt versions, but they are big and expensive. LED's are cheap and are the better choice, IMHO.

Thanks for all this information for me to ponder and make corrections. As for the LEDs; I have a couple of questions. I bought some bayonet LED inside the regular looking bulbs. I thought I would use them in the #395 light tower, but they did not throw any light to speak of. Since they are flood lights, I want light output. Second, are there even LEDs to replace the #195 2-pin floodlight bulbs? And if so, will they throw light or act like the others I mentioned above? If I went with a transformer like in a garden light set up, I would have no control on the brightness of the bulbs, or could I get some sore of reohstat to control this? Certainly looks like I would need to break down my lights onto a couple of transformers. Thanks for your help.

@Former Member posted:

I'm guessing you added the voltages together. It doesn't work that way. It does work that way for the current, so you had the right idea there. However, both towers are wired in a parallel/series scheme, so the current is half of what you came up with as pairs on bulbs are strung together. So, using your numbers, 9.6A + 3.5A = 13.1A, and we we take into account the wiring scheme, it's around 6.6A.

The transformer will put out whatever voltage you set it for, regardless of the amps required, up to point. The ZW is rated for 250 watts. It's actually less, but let's use 250. Watts is the result of multiplying Amps with Volts. If you connect enough stuff, the current goes up to a point where the math exceeds 250W and then the  voltage drops until the math for the current draw and voltage come down to the 250 again. When a direct short wants all the current, the voltage ends up at 0.

The watts required for you lights can be calculated by multiplying the Amps and Volts. If we require 7.6A and you are setting the transformer for 12 volts, that's 7.6 x 12 =  91.2 watts. The ZW should be able to handle that, unless the breaker is faulty. That's a possibility, considering the age if the breaker is original. Another possibility is a tower has a partial short.

You say you know little about electricity, but a Volt-Amp-Ohm meter is less expensive than most of your trains, and it's not that difficult to handle the basics of it to troubleshoot things like this. Plus, there are enough people on here to walk you thorough - I think you should give it a try.

Thank you for your reply and educating me on this. I know one of my "banks" of lights on the #195 are dim and some bright, so maybe I have some sort of a short. I'll do my best to work on this stuff should I understand it all.

@ADCX Rob posted:

You are powering 80 ~3.5 watt bulbs, requiring 200 watts nominally, with a ZW that is capable of 178-180 watts continuous watts output. 275 watts is the input rating.

OK thanks for calculating what I have going on!

@BobbyD posted:

400 volts?

Guessing you are overloading the circuit amp wise. Don't think the hot terminal is a good thing. Normally that's a red flag of an issue.

Agreed that heat build up is not good.

@John H posted:

You could easily power these with a used computer power supply. Most have over 300 watts rating at 12 vdc, and the lights will work on dc. You can get them for $30 or less.

Interesting food for thought. Thanks.

@Jeff B. Haertlein posted:

Thanks for all this information for me to ponder and make corrections. As for the LEDs; I have a couple of questions. I bought some bayonet LED inside the regular looking bulbs. I thought I would use them in the #395 light tower, but they did not throw any light to speak of. Since they are flood lights, I want light output. Second, are there even LEDs to replace the #195 2-pin floodlight bulbs? And if so, will they throw light or act like the others I mentioned above? If I went with a transformer like in a garden light set up, I would have no control on the brightness of the bulbs, or could I get some sore of reohstat to control this? Certainly looks like I would need to break down my lights onto a couple of transformers. Thanks for your help.

Any further comments about the LEDs???

@ADCX Rob posted:

You are powering 80 ~3.5 watt bulbs, requiring 200 watts nominally, with a ZW that is capable of 178-180 watts continuous watts output. 275 watts is the input rating.

Today I put my amp meter that I bought, in line with my power out to the lights. I had a meter reading of 6.5amps. The ZW still trips. I then tried a KW with about 18 volts, reading 6 amps. It kept the lights on for some time, and then all of a sudden the KW breaker kicked in. The terminals were warm, but not HOT to the touch as with the one post of the ZW. I'm still at a loss.

If the wire from the terminals or terminals themselves are hot, you either have too much current flowing, or unwanted resistance. 6A at 18v is only 108 watts, so that should not be the problem. (BTW, you are not running anything else with the ZW  at this time, correct?) Check the connection to the (thermally) hot post on the ZW. You will have to open the case to do this. The riveted connection on the inside is known to fail. A partial failure will produce the effect you are having. The repair is to purchase new post which has a threaded nut instead of a rivet. If one has failed, check the remainder!

Chris

LVHR

BTW, Old CBs on ZWs and KWs are known to loose their calibration and trip whenever they want. Could be well to either side of the correct set point. If you have not replaced the original CB, that would certainly be worth doing. They are not that expensive.

Chris

LVHR

@lehighline posted:

If the wire from the terminals or terminals themselves are hot, you either have too much current flowing, or unwanted resistance. 6A at 18v is only 108 watts, so that should not be the problem. (BTW, you are not running anything else with the ZW  at this time, correct?) Check the connection to the (thermally) hot post on the ZW. You will have to open the case to do this. The riveted connection on the inside is known to fail. A partial failure will produce the effect you are having. The repair is to purchase new post which has a threaded nut instead of a rivet. If one has failed, check the remainder!

Chris

LVHR

I am using all four posts on these ZWs. But many of them are for accessories, so they aren't on all the time, some are for other lights / LEDs

@lehighline posted:

If the wire from the terminals or terminals themselves are hot, you either have too much current flowing, or unwanted resistance. 6A at 18v is only 108 watts, so that should not be the problem. (BTW, you are not running anything else with the ZW  at this time, correct?) Check the connection to the (thermally) hot post on the ZW. You will have to open the case to do this. The riveted connection on the inside is known to fail. A partial failure will produce the effect you are having. The repair is to purchase new post which has a threaded nut instead of a rivet. If one has failed, check the remainder!

Chris

LVHR

I  will also check out the post. I have never done that, but I think I know exactly what you are talking about, in fact I think I had a loose post....now I wonder if this isn't the same post? Thanks for that heads up too.

If memory serves, all 4 posts are protected by just one CB. So your TOTAL wattage from all 4 posts (whatever is drawing power at that time) can be only ~220watts. At 18V, that's a tad over 12A.

Chris

LVHR

One issue not addressed here is that LIONEL's #195 floodlight tower uses eight 6- Volt bulbs wired in series; if one bulb [or more] is dim it's because you may have one {or more} 12 volt bulbs in your towers.  It is not necessarily indicative of a short.

Strangely enough, LIONEL's  6 volt bulb is cataloged #L12; while the 12 volt bulb is cataloged #L19. Both are of the 2-pin "push-in" style and are almost impossible to tell apart without firing up some current through them.  Some early original GE bulbs have a  '1  2'  or a '1   9' molded into the glass bulb sphere near the pins; some do not. Be careful, though; the 6-volt bulb will burn out almost immediately if you load it up directly with an 18 'volt jolt' from your transformer.

However,  I think you're simply asking the ZW to put out more power than it can adequately supply.  As is their design, all AC V step-down transformers heat up after running awhile,  and as such they are unable to generate consistent power more than 70%-75% of their rated input listing;  while you may coax 200 watts out of your ZW when it's cool, it'll gradually heat up when too much current is constantly input, hence your circuit breaker tripping.

From my own experience, when I had  large Super"0" layout, with a lot of switches and many steadily burning lamps, I used 4 KW 190 watt transformers for the lights & accessories, which worked great - almost 600 watts of nominal power, 760w rated input.  I reserved two 275w 'ZW's for train operation only, and a small LW 125W for the switchyard..

1,435 watts for the railroad!  Worked great, until my ex-wife would get the monthly electrical bill...

Hope this helps.

@Len Carparelli posted:

One issue not addressed here is that LIONEL's #195 floodlight tower uses eight 6- Volt bulbs wired in series; if one bulb [or more] is dim it's because you may have one {or more} 12 volt bulbs in your towers.  It is not necessarily indicative of a short.

Strangely enough, LIONEL's  6 volt bulb is cataloged #L12; while the 12 volt bulb is cataloged #L19. Both are of the 2-pin "push-in" style and are almost impossible to tell apart without firing up some current through them.  Some early original GE bulbs have a  '1  2'  or a '1   9' molded into the glass bulb sphere near the pins; some do not. Be careful, though; the 6-volt bulb will burn out almost immediately if you load it up directly with an 18 'volt jolt' from your transformer.

However,  I think you're simply asking the ZW to put out more power than it can adequately supply.  As is their design, all AC V step-down transformers heat up after running awhile,  and as such they are unable to generate consistent power more than 70%-75% of their rated input listing;  while you may coax 200 watts out of your ZW when it's cool, it'll gradually heat up when too much current is constantly input, hence your circuit breaker tripping.

From my own experience, when I had  large Super"0" layout, with a lot of switches and many steadily burning lamps, I used 4 KW 190 watt transformers for the lights & accessories, which worked great - almost 600 watts of nominal power, 760w rated input.  I reserved two 275w 'ZW's for train operation only, and a small LW 125W for the switchyard..

1,435 watts for the railroad!  Worked great, until my ex-wife would get the monthly electrical bill...

Hope this helps.

Well Hi Len: Thanks for your input too. Points well taken, and I will be proceeding from here. Len...remember I was the guy with all those EP5 shells you bought for a gal I was helping out. Hope they are making good use for you.

Yes, Jeff, of course I remember!

Many of those EP-5s were painted in various road names and all those have found new homes!  Still have some left, but supply is drying up...anyway, good to hear from you, and I hope you have solved your electrical  issues. Stay safe and be well, always!

@Len Carparelli posted:

Yes, Jeff, of course I remember!

Many of those EP-5s were painted in various road names and all those have found new homes!  Still have some left, but supply is drying up...anyway, good to hear from you, and I hope you have solved your electrical  issues. Stay safe and be well, always!

That's great to hear. That was a bunch of shells!