If you go on the website for Dunham's, who has posted a couple layout build threads, they tell you straight out what they charge to build a layout. I was surprised and thought for the most part their prices seem reasonable.
Professional all inclusive layout builds can run turnkey in the $375 per square foot range. Plus unusual delivery/setup charges. Real numbers.
The least expensive Dunham studios 4X8 layout is $5000 with two trains, plus $350 for the base. A 4X8 is 4608 square inches. The math gives $1.16 per square inch. Sounds like a bargain. Or $167 per square foot.
The two-level layout is $6500 plus $350 for the base. $1.41 per square inch.
Angela Trotta Thomas's Winter Wonderland: $9,500.00 with lighted base $550.00 is $2.18 per square inch.
These starter layouts don't have all the bells and whistles or expensive trains (they are LionChief), which would run the cost up a good bit. No signals. But these are very nice.
My 6X12 has cost me $8000 in materials and trains so far. Math works out to $0.77 per square inch so far, but I am not done! Fastrack, LionChief+, conventional.
My Cisco 4X8 has been expanded to just short of 4X10 to accommodate Menard's power plant, and cost around $3K including trains track, buildings, power, scenery, or about $0.52 per square inch. For me, the largest expense has been trains, followed by track, then buildings next. $75.00 per square foot.
Another aspect is your cash outflow per month. For my 4X10 over six months about $500 per month. For my 6X12, over 16 years, about $42 per month.
Ken-Oscale posted:The least expensive Dunham studios 4X8 layout is $5000 with two trains, plus $350 for the base. A 4X8 is 4608 square inches. The math gives $1.16 per square inch. Sounds like a bargain. Or $167 per square foot.
Talk about inflation. My 4x8 layout in 1950 cost about 100 bucks. That includes a $40 027 set, track, switch, mountain, three operating accessories with operating cars, ballasted track with added ties, 1/2 dozen plasticville buildings and signal bridge, sceniced. Table made of 2x4s and homosote.
What does the added $4,900 get you?
Pete
My wife once asked how much I had spent on trains. I said about $30 to $40K. I really thought I was being truthful. Over the last year or so, I've been thinning out my collection as I have finally found where I want my new layout to go. ( I couldn't decide whether I wanted a detailed, realistic layout or more of a toy tinplate look). I'm going the toy route. I reckon I've sold off about $30K worth, and to be honest, can't really notice that big a hole.
Just curious: How long did it take you to accumulate all those trains?
There are some real long time train folks among us. If one can afford to spend $1,000 a year, and does so over a period of forty years, is that a lot?
Eliot,
Congratulations on building a new layout! As you know, I did the same, proving true what Jim Barrett told me years ago when I was first building the first Duckunder: "Whenever I complete a layout, I admire it for a bit and then get out the reciprocating saw and cut it up so I can start again!"
Jim was right about me. I am happiest in the design and construction stages, even though I love operating. That said, the new Duckunder is nearing completion, and I don't plan to cut it up any time soon.
As you know, I am running a bunch of your rolling stock and your modified JLC N&W Y6b on the new Duckunder. Many of your boxcars now serve the Planters Peanuts plant and Lipton Tea factory in Suffolk on my railroad, and the reefers are frequently seen at the Outer Banks Seafood Shippers dock, also in Suffolk, being loaded with fresh and frozen products for inland markets. Hope you will come visit one day, and I sure want to see your new layout when it is done.
Let me know what you need (locos and rolling stock), and I will be on the lookout for it.
Warm regards,
A layout built in 1950 versus today. What does the added $4900 get you? Hopefully reality.
P.S. Note that I didn't mention cost. That's because my wife might read this...
William 1 posted:A layout built in 1950 versus today. What does the added $4900 get you? Hopefully reality.
Really? I could duplicate that same layout for 300 bucks today. Care to wager that $4900? Real money right?
Pete
I hope we are all interested in having fun, enjoying whatever trains and layouts we have, sharing our information with others, and the joy of being above ground while living in America. At least we have the opportunity and freedom to play with trains if we choose, and the reality to aspire to bigger or better if that is what we want. I agree there is room under the tent for all of us.
Yeah, I would. $300 with an O27 set running, track, transformer, one switch, a mountain, three operating accessories with the matching operating cars, ballasted track with added ties, half a dozen plasticville buildings, a signal bridge, sceniced?, table made of two by fours and homasote. Screws, glue... Any kind of decent fascia, wood to set up the power box. You are into it for a hundred bucks before you stand it up on six legs.
I'll take that bet. Please post a detailed material list, labor not necessary. If you can build it for $300 and sell it for $5000, well, I'd like to know how. Sounds like I'm in the wrong business.
Remember scrapiron sher likes to brag about everything he has or done.
Yes he had a nice layout and he will build another one just as nice.
But why can't he just build it and stop the bragging.
Tom Tee posted:Professional all inclusive layout builds can run turnkey in the $375 per square foot range. Plus unusual delivery/setup charges. Real numbers.
I notice AMFLYER posted a 2K a sq ft price for his S scale layout [not including trains] no mention of actual size but at 2K a sq ft this a serious investment. just saying
I couldn't break down how much my layout cost, as I simply didn't keep a running tally. I was buying track, structure stuff, detail parts and rolling stock over time, probably at least a year or more before the track plan even existed.
At this point, I couldn't even guess what the final amount is. But I couldn't imagine I have more than a low number thousands in it, even though I had to buy everything new for the layout as I was getting back into the hobby after several years and had nothing when I started.
So, for a layout in a 11×10' room, it'd be interesting to know what the actual per square foot cost was. I coudn't imagine it comes anywhere even remotely close to that $100/square inch amount.
I have frequently been asked how much I have spent. I've never added it up, and I really have no interest in knowing. As for my wife, I can honestly say "I don't know".
Are you sure that number isn't $100/ft2? Based upon this number that would work out to $7,862,400 for my layout (14x39x144x100). Regardless, it doesn't look like I'm headed towards "greatness".
I agree with others that the costs stated most likely should be per square foot, not square inch. My calculations above would suggest that costs are in the $100+ per square foot.
Funny, I don't think anybody has ever asked me how much money I have spent on trains. Occasionally someone will ask what they are worth, but nobody has even done that in a while.
My wife could not care less about how much money I've spent on trains. She knows I am self-regulating.
William 1 posted:Yeah, I would. $300 with an O27 set running, track, transformer, one switch, a mountain, three operating accessories with the matching operating cars, ballasted track with added ties, half a dozen plasticville buildings, a signal bridge, sceniced?, table made of two by fours and homasote. Screws, glue... Any kind of decent fascia, wood to set up the power box. You are into it for a hundred bucks before you stand it up on six legs.
I'll take that bet. Please post a detailed material list, labor not necessary. If you can build it for $300 and sell it for $5000, well, I'd like to know how. Sounds like I'm in the wrong business.
I didn't say I would get 5000 bucks for it, only said I could build a duplicate of it for 300 bucks. Mine didn't have fascia or a power box. Lionel 2035s are going for 60 bucks today. That would be the most expensive item. 4 non operating cars 40 bucks. 027 track, maybe 25 cents each. Get the idea?
Pete
One piece of 4x8 1/2" homasote is thirty bucks. Ten two by four eights is twenty five. The two items you listed are a hundred. That's one fifty five, and I think you still need to cross more than a couple things off your list. Ok, you win. Maybe you are planning on stealing everything on your list. I have no idea, but this is a pointless argument. And was from the beginning. Especially asking me to bet on it.
What'should really interesting is if you add in your labor costs and include time researching on the Internet. Has to be 500 bucks a square inch in that case.
All the best,
Miketg
Lionel 2035s are going for 60 bucks today. That would be the most expensive item. 4 non operating cars 40 bucks. 027 track, maybe 25 cents each. Get the idea?
In good shape, with a whistling tender?
When I was putting train sets together for people, the engine was the most expensive item, followed by the transformer. Around here a 1033 that has been serviced, has a good cord and is all ready to go, would sell for around $30.
Tried figuring mine and ended up with the total being "priceless".
Using the $167 per square foot .... 25x40 ... mine would be $167,000 .... GOOD GOD I HOPE MY WIFE DOESN'T READ THIS !!!!
lets see double decked layout 30 ft x 30ft...
so 30x30 x2 = 1,800 square feet of railroad if I did not subtract the area from the center of the room ...
1,800 x 144 = $259,200.00 !!!!!!!!!! 
So looking may be at actual square ft. of actual layout... minus the stairs coming down the basement...and walking access areas...
456 x144 = 65,664... hmm no that still seems way to high...
The problem is it depends how many locomotives you have collected and displayed on your walls and under the layout!
Is there a formula for that?
Has to be $100 per square foot. Otherwise, I'd have to spend over $1 million to have a great layout in my garage. At that price I'd rather buy and gut my neighbor's house and make it my own train club!!! (Did you notice as you spoke to the fellow...had he been drinking? 
Layouts can cost what an owner is willing or able to spend. Anyone who has time and talent should always build their own. Unfortunately I had neither. I built many small highrail layouts that looked nice but I wanted a really nice room filling permanent layout. After several years of my agonizing over the decision my wife insisted I proceed. If that day I had known the final cost I would likely have scaled back on the track plan. However I am am totally happy with what was built. Since my wife is writing the checks she knows what we are spending, I wish it were less.
Part ot the cost is driven by the need to get the layout to its assigned room. The maximum size through the door and vestibule is 2.5'x2.5'x6.5'. This required The layout be modular in the vertical as well as horizontal directions. That adds a lot of cost not incurred if the layout is stick built in the room. Just the cost to purchase the 39 LCS components, 55 Tortoise machines, the ZW-L's, Z1000's, the cables, wire, terminal blocks, reverse loop controllers (2 rail, remember), 800' of track, and signals was about $100/sq. ft. I am using the layout dimensions, not the room dimensions. I am only counting the size as one level even though there are multiple levels in most locations.
Track design and complexity affects costs greatly. Compound curves, easements and super elevation add cost as do hand laid numbered and curved turnouts. If the track plan were simplified to use sectional track and commercial turnouts and no LCS (only Legacy) and put in a room with better access I would guess a similar looking layout could be done for about 1/3 the costs I saw. Those of you in 3 rail O may not realize how good you have it with all the commercially available items.
David1 . . . . tried to e-mail you to apologize if this thread offended you. I never intended for this thread to do that and I regret posting anything that seems as if I am bragging about what I do. So, I do apologize to anyone who feels that way. I will be much more careful in the future before I discuss cost or expenses. I do detest people who brag. I guess the Internet, and the impersonal nature of what we post/read can lead to folks thinking something is offensive even if it was never intended to be that.
Eliot
Eliot,
I accept and I would like to apologize for me jumping to conclusions. I should have known that you were not bragging and just bringing up a topic for us to chew on.
Dave
I am glad that mine, is priceless!!
Andre.
AmFlyer posted:Layouts can cost what an owner is willing or able to spend. Anyone who has time and talent should always build their own. Unfortunately I had neither. I built many small highrail layouts that looked nice but I wanted a really nice room filling permanent layout. After several years of my agonizing over the decision my wife insisted I proceed. If that day I had known the final cost I would likely have scaled back on the track plan. However I am am totally happy with what was built. Since my wife is writing the checks she knows what we are spending, I wish it were less.
Part ot the cost is driven by the need to get the layout to its assigned room. The maximum size through the door and vestibule is 2.5'x2.5'x6.5'. This required The layout be modular in the vertical as well as horizontal directions. That adds a lot of cost not incurred if the layout is stick built in the room. Just the cost to purchase the 39 LCS components, 55 Tortoise machines, the ZW-L's, Z1000's, the cables, wire, terminal blocks, reverse loop controllers (2 rail, remember), 800' of track, and signals was about $100/sq. ft. I am using the layout dimensions, not the room dimensions. I am only counting the size as one level even though there are multiple levels in most locations.
Track design and complexity affects costs greatly. Compound curves, easements and super elevation add cost as do hand laid numbered and curved turnouts. If the track plan were simplified to use sectional track and commercial turnouts and no LCS (only Legacy) and put in a room with better access I would guess a similar looking layout could be done for about 1/3 the costs I saw. Those of you in 3 rail O may not realize how good you have it with all the commercially available items.
I hear where you are coming from on this where virtually everything is custom built , you have to admit the numbers at 2k a sq ft are eye opening to most of us especially since trains are not included in this project,just saying.
Pricing - Ask Clarke Dunham - look at his posts - bet you the layout he is building is over $30K.
J Daddy posted:lets see double decked layout 30 ft x 30ft...
so 30x30 x2 = 1,800 square feet of railroad if I did not subtract the area from the center of the room ...
1,800 x 144 = $259,200.00 !!!!!!!!!!
So looking may be at actual square ft. of actual layout... minus the stairs coming down the basement...and walking access areas...
456 x144 = 65,664... hmm no that still seems way to high...
The problem is it depends how many locomotives you have collected and displayed on your walls and under the layout!
Is there a formula for that?
J Daddy, your math is a little off. 1800 square feet times 144 equals 259,200 square inches. That would be correct if it were $1 per square inch but at $100 per square inch your answer is $25,920,000.00
That's why this $100 per square inch is so ridiculous.
I agree a layout built by a professional can get very pricey depending how detailed the professional will go but still a $100 per square inch is insane. No one would pay that for a model train layout even if money was no object.
C W Burfle posted:Lionel 2035s are going for 60 bucks today. That would be the most expensive item. 4 non operating cars 40 bucks. 027 track, maybe 25 cents each. Get the idea?
In good shape, with a whistling tender?
When I was putting train sets together for people, the engine was the most expensive item, followed by the transformer. Around here a 1033 that has been serviced, has a good cord and is all ready to go, would sell for around $30.
Bought a serviced, track ready 2035 (whistle tender, smoke, magnetraction, no dents, no scratches) a couple of weeks ago at Lodi Station Outlets for $179 out the door. Earlier this summer I found a serviced, layout ready KW for $50 at the Hartville flea market. $30 bucks for a layout ready 1033 and $60 for a 2035 in reasonable shape sans tender sounds right to me.
C W Burfle posted:Funny, I don't think anybody has ever asked me how much money I have spent on trains. Occasionally someone will ask what they are worth, but nobody has even done that in a while.
Maybe that's an advantage in not being in 3 rail. I don't think anyone looks at my layout and immediately wonders what my rolling stock is worth.
But as for value, I think maybe $100 per square foot might be somewhere in the balk park, for me.
An interesting insight would be to total the hours you actively spent on building your layout. Just the hours.
Then multiply that hour factor by a reasonable hourly rate. A range which would vary around this great country from say $20 to $50 per hour.
You will be surprised by that number. You need to know and document that number for insurance purposes.
Hudson J1e posted:...I agree a layout built by a professional can get very pricey depending how detailed the professional will go but still a $100 per square inch is insane. No one would pay that for a model train layout even if money was no object.
Clarke Dunham's website has a terrific "personal note from Clarke" that does a great job of setting an expectation in this regard. I didn't realize he spelled it out so well until recently. I wonder how long that information has been out there.
Naturally, it's impossible to quote a specific "dollars per square foot" for EVERYBODY... much like custom builders can't do that for everybody's house (by the vary nature that it's CUSTOM). For example, do you want ceramic tile in the bathrooms? Or exotic Italian marble? Wood banister railings in the foyer? Or fancy custom-built wrought-iron railings fabricated by the local metal worker? Wall-to-wall carpeting? Or hardwood floors throughout the whole house? You get the idea.....
I guess for our model railroads, the options are even more endless. What kind of a facade do you want around the layout's perimeter? Plain or built-in train shelves. If shelves, do you want poplar or exotic Brazilian mahogany? 
Do you want a scenic backdrop? How much of the layout's materials are YOU providing that you've already purchased over the years (i.e., track, buildings, scenic elements like bridges, etc...). Or will the custom layout builder need to source all of that for you?
Anyway, let's say your custom-built layout comes in at $300 per square foot. A very modest-sized 15x15 layout would cost a cool $67,500 at 225 square feet. Now even if you went crazy and spent $50K on trains and rolling stock over the course of 5 years... you're now looking at $522 per square foot... which is just roughly $3.60 per square inch.
For arguments sake, let's say you spec out a layout to the nines at what Clarke says typically tops out at $600 per square foot. Cranking out the math for that same 15x15 layout, we're at $135,000 to build the layout or a nose-bleeding $822 per square foot (with the $50K investment in locos and rolling stock). Even at that, we're "only" at $5.70 per square inch -- which to me is WELL into "money is no object" territory. Actually, even the $3.60 per square inch scenario falls into the "money is no object" category! 
Nonetheless, all these numbers are still a FAR cry from $100 per square inch. Can't really imagine how one would even come close to that number even if they lit a match to their money. 
David
$30 bucks for a layout ready 1033 and $60 for a 2035 in reasonable shape sans tender sounds right to me.
Me too. But you still need a tender. A whistling tender in reasonable shape would add at least another $30.
I guess mine is close to $10 a square inch. But then at 39" by 80" there are a lot fewer inches to spread the $$$ around! 
We roughly figured out the cost to date of the whole layout structure (wood, track, roadbed, switches, power, DCS, TMCC) and have less than $30,000 including the $2,000 paid for the initial framework labor. Locomotives and rolling stock ... I'd have a heart attack if I knew the total.
$100 per square inch, well that is $14,000.00 a square foot! I build very nice homes for $400.00 a square foot. Maybe this is the new math they teach?
