Wiring for Gargraves track

You can run your drops to a feeder wire. You don't really need many ground drops and unless you have insolated sections it doesn't matter which outside rail you ground. I always thought 3 foot feeders was overkill.

I agree with Jim1939 on the ground drops. While a good "ground" is important, alternating drops could get in the way of isolating an outside rail for accessory operations (if you choose to do that). You can save wire and just jumper from one outside rail to the other wherever it is needed.   

As for your hot (red) feeder question...in looking at your track plan, i would run a hot feed to two terminal strips - one strip at each side of layout - and distribute your track feeders from there.  A 10x14 layout is not that huge that you'd have a significant loss of voltage over your distances such that you'd need a bus wire around the entire layout.

Thanks for all the advice and I will review the link for sure, thanks for that. Looking for a little clarification on the replies: 1) If every 36 inches is overkill what would you recommend...48, 60 or more? 2)Only feed either the outside (or inside) rail not both, as you lose one of the great features of 3R operation. What is the great feature? the wheels completing the circuit? Any idea why local long time in business and custom layout builder train store advised to alternate the ground rail?

Thanks!

@Roy MacKinnon posted:

Thanks for all the advice and I will review the link for sure, thanks for that. Looking for a little clarification on the replies: 1) If every 36 inches is overkill what would you recommend...48, 60 or more? 2)Only feed either the outside (or inside) rail not both, as you lose one of the great features of 3R operation. What is the great feature? the wheels completing the circuit? Any idea why local long time in business and custom layout builder train store advised to alternate the ground rail?

Thanks!

1) If every 36 inches is overkill what would you recommend...48, 60 or more?

When i first got my gargraves trackage layed out i tested its conductivity and found i could power about 100 feet of track with one connection and minimal voltage loss.  Add in switches, eventual dust and dirt, more engines and lighted cars and you'll need more feeders.  I have found so far 6 feet to be sufficient.  But since you are putting your spade connectors in from the bottom and probably do not want to have to rip up track to fix a problem area, they probably recommended the 3 ft distance.

2)Only feed either the outside (or inside) rail not both, as you lose one of the great features of 3R operation. What is the great feature? the wheels completing the circuit?

Yes, with wood ties isolating either "ground" rail, you can easily create an insulated track segment by isolating one section of one ground rail from the rest of the trackage and use it to trigger a crossing gate, block signal, panel lights or other accessories.  See https://lionelllc.wordpress.co...utside-rail-6-12029/. Only with Gargraves or Ross wood tie trackage you dont need to buy a special section.

Any idea why local long time in business and custom layout builder train store advised to alternate the ground rail?

Probably just for added assurance you have no electrical problems.  Even if you do alternate your "ground" connections and find you want to create an isolated segment for item 2 above, simply cut the wire to the track and use it for your accessory.

Don’t forget to phase your two transformers

@MainLine Steam posted:

Only feed either the outside (or inside) rail not both, as you lose one of the great features of 3R operation.  Let the wheels complete the circuit.

I'm confused about this advice.  While I agree that Ross/Gargraves or Atlas track makes it easier to do insulated rail signals, It's pretty well known that for maximum reliability having both outside rails common works best.  This is especially true with small wheelbase locomotives transitioning some switches.

I wired mine with drops from both rails and then both to common.  If I decide I want an insulated rail function, I can simply disconnect one rail under the layout as they're connected using lever nuts.

@trainbob: I know about phasing speakers but had not considered transformers. Can you please elaborate?

@Roy MacKinnon posted:

@trainbob: I know about phasing speakers but had not considered transformers. Can you please elaborate?

Phasing transformers is the exact same idea.  If you connect transformers in-phase to adjacent track segments, and they're set for the same output voltage, all is well when a train transitions between those segments.

However, if you connect transformers out of phase between those same two segments, the differential voltage between those segments will the the sum of the two transformer settings!  Needless to say, this is not good for any train, but especially those with electronics!

Hello all,

Well, this thread has shown that there are multiple ways to skin a cat...I too was confused so I called Gargraves. They told me they would agree to wire the ground tracks in alternating fashion.. I.e. if the first ground line is to the outside ground then at the next feeder line wire the ground to the inside ground. They also agreed every three feet was not necessary and said there should be no problem if I wire every 8 to 12 feet.... I'll probably do every 6 feet just for my own comfort level. As for in phase transformers I don't have to worry as the transformers are newer with a polarized plug.

Thanks again to everyone who chimed in.

@gunrunnerjohn: I posted my last comment before seeing you had attached a video about transformer phasing. Thank you..watched the whole video and makes sense. Appreciate you taking the extra step.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm confused about this advice.  While I agree that Ross/Gargraves or Atlas track makes it easier to do insulated rail signals, It's pretty well known that for maximum reliability having both outside rails common works best.  This is especially true with small wheelbase locomotives transitioning some switches.

I wired mine with drops from both rails and then both to common.  If I decide I want an insulated rail function, I can simply disconnect one rail under the layout as they're connected using lever nuts.

I also connect both outside rails at each drop.  I also install a TVS at each drop. Here is a photo of my 'drop'.  I install these where needed after I lay the track.

@CAPPilot posted:

I also connect both outside rails at each drop.  I also install a TVS at each drop. Here is a photo of my 'drop'.  I install these where needed after I lay the track.

If you run DCS, I would caution about too many TVS diodes across the track.  Each of the 1500W TVS diodes present about a 1500pf capacitive load across the track.  Too many of those will degrade the DCS signal enough to cause issues operating DCS engines.

@Roy MacKinnon posted:

Hello all,

Well, this thread has shown that there are multiple ways to skin a cat...I too was confused so I called Gargraves. They told me they would agree to wire the ground tracks in alternating fashion.. I.e. if the first ground line is to the outside ground then at the next feeder line wire the ground to the inside ground. They also agreed every three feet was not necessary and said there should be no problem if I wire every 8 to 12 feet.... I'll probably do every 6 feet just for my own comfort level. As for in phase transformers I don't have to worry as the transformers are newer with a polarized plug.

Thanks again to everyone who chimed in.

Roy, I would still check the phasing on both your two transformers just for safety sake. I have 2 MTH Z-1000 Transformers with polarized 2 prong plugs. I thought I would be okay, but tested them together and found out one was indeed out of phase when at max voltage they were reading 36 Volts. I switched the two wires after cutting off the plug and installed a new polarized plug. Then tested them again, it was fine reading 0 volts together. When separated they both read 18 volts at full voltage and have worked fine since. Never assume anything! Check any power supply. I would had a Locomotive BBQ on the tracks if I didn't test it. Better being safe than sorry.

Gary..great advice. I plan to test it based on the video gunrunner John posted...you are absolutely right...my pride and joy is a very limited edition of the SP Daylight that I got about 3 years ago through the LCCA...if I fried that I would have a break down. lol

GRG - if we wire both outer rails for ground as you suggest, do you need to add any TVSs as shown in CAPPilot's picture?

Also, if we wire both outer rails for ground, and we are adding the two wires to the inner rails on Ross switches for nonderailing, does the outer rail also have to be insulated at the switch (in addition to the inner rails being insulated?)

There have been a number of instances where newer transformers with polarized plugs have had phasing problems with different examples of the same transformer.  I remember the MTH Z-1000, the Lionel CW-80, and two different times for the Lionel Powerhouse transformers.

In addition, for those with a larger layout, if you plug transformers into different outlets, you can end up with them being out of phase for that reason alone, even though the transformers are identically phased.  A fact well known, but not universally known, there are 115V circuits on each side of the 230V input voltage to the main power panel.  The 115V power is tapped from one side of the 230V input voltage and the neutral line.  The outlets on one side of the feed will be out of phase with the other side of the feed.  In many houses/buildings, the outlets in one room are staggered between the two sides of the 230V feed to equally distribute the overall load.

When I was having my office suite wired in my previous house, I purposely staggered the adjacent outlet power source.  I had a consulting business with a bunch of computers & printers in one room.  Half a dozen laser printers and computers on one phase would present a lopsided load on one side of the 230V main.  Not only does this cost you more in power costs, it affects power quality in the rest of the house.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you run DCS, I would caution about too many TVS diodes across the track.  Each of the 1500W TVS diodes present about a 1500pf capacitive load across the track.  Too many of those will degrade the DCS signal enough to cause issues operating DCS engines.

I use blocks (center rail cut at each end of block).  I have one drop per block.  Somewhere back in the dark ages it was stated this would not have that compounding capacitive load effect.  At least I hope it doesn't.

I have very few TVSs in my engines (working on that). Having a TVS at the drop is the closest I can get it to the electronics for now.

@CAPPilot posted:

I use blocks (center rail cut at each end of block).  I have one drop per block.  Somewhere back in the dark ages it was stated this would not have that compounding capacitive load effect.  At least I hope it doesn't.

I'm not sure who came up with that pearl of wisdom, but it's not true.

I do not use any TVS units. I attached the outher rails to each other and I run blocks to a main hookup system.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm not sure who came up with that pearl of wisdom, but it's not true.

GRJ, is that because the way we wire the tvs they are in parallel with each other? I would assume so because on one side you have the common ground that goes back to the transformer, and the power feed to the block all go back to the same source (the transformer), so they are in parallel...correct? Busy finally wiring my layout, I should send pictures of my soldering in, would give a lot of guys months of mirth

If you put two capacitors in parallel, it doesn't matter if you put 20-30 feet of wire between them, they're still in parallel.  What was being discussed was the capacitance of the typical 1500W 36-39V TVS we use.  It has about 1500pf of capacitance.

By all means, pictures, we can always use a chuckle!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you put two capacitors in parallel, it doesn't matter if you put 20-30 feet of wire between them, they're still in parallel.  What was being discussed was the capacitance of the typical 1500W 36-39V TVS we use.  It has about 1500pf of capacitance.

By all means, pictures, we can always use a chuckle!

I think it would be like the hyenas in Roger Rabbit, you guys would all die laughing.I already destroyed a toggle switch by heating it up too much, been a long time since I have done any significant wiring.

Agree the length has nothing to do with it, I think whoever came up with the idea that block wiring would stop capacitance overload forgot that the hot wire still goes back to the same source, hence it is parallel.

@bigkid posted:

Agree the length has nothing to do with it, I think whoever came up with the idea that block wiring would stop capacitance overload forgot that the hot wire still goes back to the same source, hence it is parallel.

BINGO!

@Roy MacKinnon posted:

Gary..great advice. I plan to test it based on the video gunrunner John posted...you are absolutely right...my pride and joy is a very limited edition of the SP Daylight that I got about 3 years ago through the LCCA...if I fried that I would have a break down. lol

Roy, I'm pretty sure I remember reading a post by Gunrunner John about out of phase transformers by the same manufacturers years ago, that's why I tested them out to be sure. I also had a couple of Lionel CW-80's that were out of phase also. They died years ago after about 2 years of use, so I replaced the 2 CW-80's with the 2 MTH Z-1000's, except for the out of phase issue which was easy enough to fix by cutting off the old polarized plug, reversing the wires, and putting on a new polarized plug, they have been bulletproof with no other issues in 14 years of use.