NdeM 4-8-4 Niagra Project

I have only heard of NYC Niagara's.  If they are similar there are plenty of nyc Niagra models to use as a starting point.

Edit - and welcome to the Ogr forum

It would be a great help if you could post a picture of the engine you want to model.

Most all 4-8-4 engines were referred to as Northerns. Only the New York Central called their 4-8-4 a Niagara and there are many models of that engine already out there.

Pete

@Norton posted:

It would be a great help if you could post a picture of the engine you want to model.

Most all 4-8-4 engines were referred to as Northerns. Only the New York Central called their 4-8-4 a Niagara and there are many models of that engine already out there.

Pete

NYC Niagara, WM Potomac, C&O Greenbrier, SP Golden State, GN Empire Builder, RF&P Governor and General, NC&StL Dixie, CofG Big Apple, UP 800, ATSF Big Mountains, LV Wyoming: all 4-8-4's.

36 railroads in total rostered 4-8-4's.

Rusty

I did a little bit of research and found that the NdeM Niagara, and the nyc Niagra where in fact not the same machine, but similar in design.  The NdeM looks like a scaled down version of the NYC monsters, with a more conventional tender arrangement and no elephant ear smoke deflectors.  Apparently the NdeM folks were at Lima when the NYC machines were under construction and were impressed with them so they placed an order for something similar.  That's all I know folks.

@jhz563 posted:

I did a little bit of research and found that the NdeM Niagara, and the nyc Niagra where in fact not the same machine, but similar in design.  The NdeM looks like a scaled down version of the NYC monsters, with a more conventional tender arrangement and no elephant ear smoke deflectors.  Apparently the NdeM folks were at Lima when the NYC machines were under construction and were impressed with them so they placed an order for something similar.  That's all I know folks.

According to Steam Locomotive.com NdeM's 4-8-4's were all built by Alco and Baldwin.

Rusty

Since you're semi-scale the closest model to  NdeM 4-8-4 is probably a Rail King ATSF 4-8-4.

Hey guys,

Sorry that I didn't include pictures in my last post. I'll fix that now. I don't think that I can post pictures because of copyright so I will link them.

Front View

Rear View

Side View. Marty Bernard from U.S.A., Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons

And here is a video of someone walking around an engine in the museum. Video

Here is the K-Line K 3238. The resemblance is pretty good in my view. K-Line Lackawanna 4-6-4

And just some information about the real locomotives. They were the only steam locomotives that NdeM bought new. Their name is spelled Niagra to reflect the Spanish pronunciation. They were small for 4-8-4s in order to handle lighter built track on parts of the NdeM system.

@Lou1985 posted:

Since you're semi-scale the closest model to  NdeM 4-8-4 is probably a Rail King ATSF 4-8-4.

Yeah, I’d second that,…be a fine starting point,…

Pat

NdeM Niagaras were the second lightest 4-8-4s produced.  Why NdeM decided on that name is anyone's guess, but they are very interesting locomotives and unlike their NYC counterpart had long successful careers.

I am very happy to see more people take an interest in what I consider to be the most interesting railroad on the North American continent.  I would model it if I wasn't invested in other roads of the southwest already.  The RK ATSF Northern may be a good starting point!

There may be some detail in Kalmbach's Fantastic 4-8-4's; I have a copy and will check for you.  That's the only reference to the NdeM Niagra's I've seen, but do remember that they were the smallest of the species.  They look to be about the boiler size of a heavy Mikado, with 4-wheel trucks.

@HCF posted:

Here is the K-Line K 3238. The resemblance is pretty good in my view. K-Line Lackawanna 4-6-4

Except for the two missing drivers, a huge issue, at least to me!

@GG1 4877 posted:

NdeM Niagaras were the second lightest 4-8-4s produced.  Why NdeM decided on that name is anyone's guess, but they are very interesting locomotives and unlike their NYC counterpart had long successful careers.

I am very happy to see more people take an interest in what I consider to be the most interesting railroad on the North American continent.  I would model it if I wasn't invested in other roads of the southwest already.  The RK ATSF Northern may be a good starting point!

No - not "anyones guess" - the reps of the NdeM were visiting Schenectady about the time that the NYC Niagara were being built and liked the name. They were there regarding their own 4-8-4 order.

The NdeM "Niagra" (note correct NdeM spelling - it's not "Niagara") was essentially a copy of the Nashville, Chattanooga and St Louls 4-8-4's, which were called "Dixies" (as they should have been) by that railroad. There is one Dixie surviving, in Nashville, and there is hope of a restoration. Unfortumately it is in the less-stream-styled end-of-career form. Better than scrapped, though.

The later Dixies (there was an earlier 4-8-4),  NC&StL class "J-3", were stream-styled and extremely sleek (I wish that a skyline casing had been added, also). There were 2 orders of later 4-8-4's, the first nicknamed "Yellow Jackets" because of the broad yellow stripe on the running board skirting, and the second were called "Stripes", as the running boards had no skirts.

I have long had plans to model a Dixie, but I have never been able to decide on the correct donor engine. There are possibilities. Some think of the Dixies (and the NdeM Niagra) as "small". Smaller than a Santa Fe 2900 or even a NYC "Niagara", yes - but that's like saying "small elephant".

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Except for the two missing drivers, a huge issue, at least to me!

Oh I definitely agree that the missing driver is big aspect missing. I was thinking of potentially acquiring the K3238 shell and mating it with an 8 wheel chassis.

Doing a quick measurement of a similar K Line 4-6-4 from the same production time at my train club it looks like there is a little more than 4 inches of space between the pistons and the firebox on the engine. Does anyone know if the pistons are part of the shell or if they’re part of the chassis? If not does anyone know of an 8 wheel chassis with 1 inch drivers? Where can I look for one?

@Rusty Traque posted:

According to Steam Locomotive.com NdeM's 4-8-4's were all built by Alco and Baldwin.

Rusty

Yup - I totally goofed that up.  So much for trying to work my real job at the same time!

Since scale proportion is not an issue my first thought was a Lionel 736 Berkshire or the Williams equivalent. A four-wheel pilot truck (part# 8100-520) is a quick screwdriver replacement on a Berk and there's your 4-8-4. How much NdeM-specific detailing you want to apply is up to you.  

@CentralFan1976 posted:

There may be some detail in Kalmbach's Fantastic 4-8-4's; I have a copy and will check for you.  That's the only reference to the NdeM Niagra's I've seen, but do remember that they were the smallest of the species.  They look to be about the boiler size of a heavy Mikado, with 4-wheel trucks.

Thanks so much. Any information would be a great help.

@Jerry Nolan posted:

Since scale proportion is not an issue my first thought was a Lionel 736 Berkshire or the Williams equivalent. A four-wheel pilot truck (part# 8100-520) is a quick screwdriver replacement on a Berk and there's your 4-8-4. How much NdeM-specific detailing you want to apply is up to you.  

I have definitely considered this. A Berk would be a pretty easy base to paint and detail and like you said the pilot truck swap would be simple. I worry that the boiler may be too wide though. Perhaps replacing the headlight with a larger one would help. Are the cowcatchers on berks easily removed? I have one so I suppose I could go and see.

Sorry I haven't been active. I've been busy with University but I'm gonna be visiting home in a few days so trains are on my mind again. As I was [s]procrastinating an essay[/s] looking around I came across a pre-war American Flyer 4-8-4 that runs on 3 rail! The locos appear to have been numbered 572 and 571 though other numbered locos may have existed too. Can anyone provide me with any additional information? How rare are these models? How much do they tend to sell for?

Thanks,

Holden

Bear in mind that the Flyer 3-rail Northern is a 3/16" scale model with an O Gage drive.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Bear in mind that the Flyer 3-rail Northern is a 3/16" scale model with an O Gage drive.

Rusty

Ah so does that mean the engine would look tiny next to O27 and O traditional cars?

@HCF posted:

Ah so does that mean the engine would look tiny next to O27 and O traditional cars?

Most likely.   I don't have one for comparison purposes.

Rusty

How about a mpc era semi scale 4-8-4 like the northern pacific one with Railsounds.

@HCF posted:

Sorry I haven't been active. I've been busy with University but I'm gonna be visiting home in a few days so trains are on my mind again. As I was [s]procrastinating an essay[/s] looking around I came across a pre-war American Flyer 4-8-4 that runs on 3 rail! The locos appear to have been numbered 572 and 571 though other numbered locos may have existed too. Can anyone provide me with any additional information? How rare are these models? How much do they tend to sell for?

Thanks,

Holden

Like Rusty noted, the prewar Flyer 3/16ths O gauge Flyer 4-8-4 is S scale sized (the boiler is a little chubby for full S scale) - it would look small compared to traditionally sized O and 0-27 cars. The engines aren't cheap - they were subject to zinc pest (especially the tender, whose shell, frame and sideframes are frequently disintegrated, the engine is prone to pilot and trailing truck wheels being rotted, the shells not as much), and you have to be careful when buying one so you don't end up with a pile of pest-ridden metal parts. There are intact models out there, but it's best to look one over in person before making a purchase - they're also not cheap, expect to pay $275+ for an intact/VG model. They do look super pulling Marx tin lithographed 3/16ths O gauge cars.

NYCBuffalo - The semi-scale Northern Pacific 4-8-4 with RailSounds that you referred to - Would that be Lionel's 6-18016 (#2626) that was released in 1992?

@MTN posted:

Like Rusty noted, the prewar Flyer 3/16ths O gauge Flyer 4-8-4 is S scale sized (the boiler is a little chubby for full S scale) - it would look small compared to traditionally sized O and 0-27 cars. The engines aren't cheap - they were subject to zinc pest (especially the tender, whose shell, frame and sideframes are frequently disintegrated, the engine is prone to pilot and trailing truck wheels being rotted, the shells not as much), and you have to be careful when buying one so you don't end up with a pile of pest-ridden metal parts. There are intact models out there, but it's best to look one over in person before making a purchase - they're also not cheap, expect to pay $275+ for an intact/VG model. They do look super pulling Marx tin lithographed 3/16ths O gauge cars.

Thanks for the comprehensive info! My take away then is that it is not a super common piece and should I come across one I'm not gonna want to modify it and detail it to represent a different engine. If I found one of these in good condition I wouldn't want to then ruin it by detailing it or painting it differently.

What I need to find really is an inexpensive 4-8-4 that hopefully has side walkways and such that are to my liking. Alternatively I need to find a good 8 drive wheel chassis and separately find an engine shell that is to my liking that mates with the chassis.

I'm considering a Berkshire or an MPC era Northern but the boiler is a bit wide. Ideally the donor engine boiler will be a bit more narrow but long, or it will appear long due to it's narrowness. The wheels will also have to be bokpok style so the donor engine ideally will have those or it will have to be relatively easy to switch out spoke wheels with bokpok wheels. I'm going to keep searching.

Thanks for your continued help everyone and I welcome any suggestions and advice.

Edit: The rail king Santa Fe 4-8-4 looks like a good potential base for a donor locomotive. Someone earlier in the thread recommended this loco as a potential donor and the more I look at it the better I think it looks.

Some modifications that will likely need to be made will be the removal of those tubes on the top of Santa Fe 4-8-4 that connect to the steam dome. I will also have to mask the numbers on the sand dome some how. The collapsible smoke stack is distinctive to Santa Fe so removing that I think is a must.

This may seem nit picky but on the NdeM Niagra the side walkways are straight and level from the steps on the pilot all the way to the cab. On the Santa Fe model the side walkways go up and down to different levels and the left and right walkways are not the same height with each other. Does anyone know how difficult it is to remove and replace side walkways and pilot steps on an MTH engine?

Oh also the marker lights on the Santa Fe are mounted on the smoke box face while on the Niagra the marker lights tend to have been mounted above the smokebox face. Can marker lights be easily removed or are they molded into the face of the smoke box?

Sorry to have split the discussion into two threads but another member helpfully suggested I keep everything to one topic so that's what I'm going to do moving forward.

Can anyone provide any more information on the Rail King FEFs? I know there have been a variety of different runs throughout the years. I'm interested in something with as few frills as possible and with as low a price tag as possible. I would guess then that would be a proto sound 1 engine right? I'll be heavily modifying the engine cosmetically. I'll be replacing the smoke box door, potentially removing the sand dome, and potentially removing and replacing the cab. How much do FEFs usually sell for?

Do they require a tender to run or is the tender only needed for the fancier features? Could I plug in a different rail king tender into an FEF locomotive (as long as the port is compatible) and have the train run?

Doing some research it looks like swapping Rail King tenders between locomotives is an extremely big no no. But I'm wondering, would I be able to transfer the electronics of the tender to a different shell and chassis? Or maybe I could remove the wheels from the tender and replace them with 3 axle trucks. Will different trucks mount to the Rail King FEF's tender chassis? Will they run smoothly or will they catch?

Also does anyone have photos of their Rail King FEF in action? It can be Imperial, standard Rail King, the earlier PS1 model or any of the other variants I'm not aware of. I just want to be able to get a better sense of the size of the model. If anyone has photos of their Rail King FEF next to post war steam engines or the RK Imperial Daylight I would absolutely love to see them.

I’ve moved electronics to new tenders a few times. It can be a little challenging if a smaller low side tender as some of the ps2 board stacks. Can be a little tall but it usually can be done. I always keep the same electtocoupler that came with the electronics as some are different and can damage the board.

i think the fef is on the same chassis as the railking daylight and nw j so about the same length.

@NYCBuffalo posted:

I’ve moved electronics to new tenders a few times. It can be a little challenging if a smaller low side tender as some of the ps2 board stacks. Can be a little tall but it usually can be done. I always keep the same electtocoupler that came with the electronics as some are different and can damage the board.

i think the fef is on the same chassis as the railking daylight and nw j so about the same length.

I believe the train club I'm a member of has an RK FEF. I should bring my daylight to the club and compare it to the FEF there.

Would you say then that I should transfer all electronic components from one tender to the other, so as to avoid plugging electronic components of the wrong voltage together.

Moving the whole electronics package to a new tender would be the safe bet imho

Over Thanksgiving break I took a look at the Rail King FEF at my train club. Sorry I didn't listen to those advising me choose the FEF sooner, it looks like a pretty excellent donor. Being able to hold one in my hands and physically compare it to some of my other engines sold it for me. It's even slightly shorter than my daylight!

There are several physical modifications to the body that I'll need to make.

1) I'll have to remove the headlights and marker lights from the smokebox door/front. I may even have to remove the smokebox front itself.

2) I will have to remove the equipment mounted on the pilot platform and replace it with two front shields.

3) I will have to remove the current double smokestack and replace it with a single smokestack.

4) I will have to remove the sand and steam dome assembly and place a separate steam dome and sand dome on top of the boiler.

5) I'll need to remove the smoke deflectors and put different stairs from the pilot to the running boards.

6) (Maybe) I may want to chop off the top of the cab and make it more square. We'll see. That may be too difficult and beyond my capabilities.

7) Finer detailing work. Removing the pop off valves, whistle, etc. and placing them in the appropriate places. Placing air tanks underneath the running boards on either side.

I should add that I'm currently working on another loco project right now where I'll be able to practice skills needed for this project. I figured I'd ask my questions about how to do various things with this project and apply the information to the other one. If this locomotive were a movie, this would be the pre production stage while I'm in production on the Pacific loco.

So the important question is, what tools and skills am I going to need to pull this off? The engine shell is all cast in one piece, so I'm guessing I'm going to need to use a rotary tool (I have a dremel) with a saw attachment to make some cuts? How do I do so safely and satisfactorily without damaging other parts of the loco shell?

Now I realize learning how to do the physical mods isn't going to help me if I don't actually pick up an RK FEF so I suppose it would be good to start looking for one now for the benefit of my future self. How much do these usually go for? Would it be cost effective to pick up an earlier PS1 or PS2 FEF and to buy a PS3 upgrade kit? Or would it be about the same cost as just buying a PS3 FEF? Can I get one for cheaper if it comes without the box (I won't need it since I'll be ruining the collector value by my cutting etc.) Can I get one cheaper if it has cosmetic damage? Cosmetic damage wouldn't be the worst thing in the world anyways since I may need to repaint it and I'll definitely modifying it cosmetically already.

Is it possible to swap Railking tender trucks between tender bodies?

Say I have two tenders each MTH Railking Imperial. They both have 3 axle tender trucks. Mechanically they should be swappable but how about electronically? Would swapping trucks between tenders also require swapping electronics entirely between the two shells?