1666 Confusion

I know is the floor in the cab is curved at the end it's post war and flat is pre war.

  I don't see a 2789T listed.  Do you mean the 2689T tender?

If so, you can narrow it down to 2 sets from 1940, although none are complete sets without  a) Set #1091 includes a 3659, and b) Set #1093 includes 2 1121 switches.

Bruce

I have what I believed to be a 1940 set # 1093.  However it included the silver tank #2680,  remote couplers, the plain style, silver journals,  with special track #1019.  The tender is 2689 W, Loco is 1666 E.

Remote  3651 log and  3652 gondola cars with black journals were also with the train.  I believe they are from 1941 but they also have the plain couplers instead of the slight molded knuckles on them. 

Some 1666 locos were made by Marx. They had the numbers cast into the sides of the cab.

Sorry, the tender is 2689T and the cab floor is squared off.  I'm okay with it not being a complete set as I don't have a set box for it, I just want to know what set it is from and what year.  If the last post is an accurate description of set #1093 it's not from that set.

Nick

Your described set is #1091/1091E/1091W from 1938, but you are missing the 3659 dump car from your set.  Only the initial issue Type I came with a 1689 tender, the remainder used the 2679 and all the cars had automatic box couplers.  The set dates to 1938.

Thank you TeleDoc.  I printed your reply and will put it in the box.  I have a few 3659 dump cars so I'll put one of them in the box also.

Thanks to all who replied.

Nick

I have the set but unable to get to the 1940 catalog now but I have what may be the same set. A gunmetal 1666 w coffin tender, Baby Ruth Box, Shell Tank and Caboose. a Interesting trivia about the 1666 when you add up all the base roman numerals. MDCLXVI=1666. 

I'd like to add some corrections to my own post and TeleDoc's.

Unless there is evidence to the contrary, my reference indicates set #1091 and #1093 were cataloged between 1938 to 1940.  Both sets had the 1666 w/2679 and all the cars initially indicated, so logically, we can begin to assume that without a set box it could be either set from those 3 years.

 Further, 1938 was the only year the engine was identified, with corresponding cab numbers as 1666E before the letter suffix was dropped in 1939.  This then narrows down the time line of the set between 1939 and 1940.

Bruce

i tend to agree with the spirit of this response.

in deference to some Lionel collectors, other manufacturers did exist.

if you're interested in the "Lionel 1666", spend another 5 seconds when titling your post to avoid any more confusion.

cheers...gary

I don't own or have access to a TM book, but only from "Doyle" which doesn't list a 1093 set.  If your source does show the same consist with the 1093, then it could be either set.  The lack of Prewar reference material makes it hard to pin down exact information.  From Doyle's book, the individual items are listed as issued in 1938, and running thru 1940 with different variations of the Loco itself.  You have two versions with first issues as 1666E, and the later issue was just 1666.  Doyle's book uses "Type #'s" for description, and the 1666E Type I was paired with 1689W in 1938; Type II 2689W; Type III 2689T; Type IV used Nickel Number plate & 2689W, and all were Gunmetal Gray....The Type V was Black, Nickel Number plates & 2689T.

The 1666 Type I had 2689W; the Type II had 2689T; the Type III was Rubber Stamped with 2666T (Plastic tender); Type IV also rubber stamped with 2666W, and all of the 1666 without the "E" came in Black only.

The further I dig into the subject, the more sets I discover that had the 1666 and those 3 cars. Set # 1089 had the engine and cars strictly as Nick listed...no extras. 

The Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains has a list of every cataloged prewar set from 1915-1942.   Each set # lists it's contents which is where I'm getting all my info.  All set numbers ending with the letter W had the corresponding whistle tender and in 1938 the suffix E was used in some, but not all set numbers to indicate a reversing engine in the set.  The suffix E was dropped in 1939 on both the engine plates and within the set number.

Up on my soap box now....

With the wealth of collectors literature, I find the minutia important for authenticating originality of individual pieces.  Whether each piece was factory packed together in the set in question is hard to prove these days.  When boxes are not included, all bets are off.  The absolute mania attached to past collecting and its unscrupulous profiteers have all but wiped out any true originality when it comes to authenticating complete sets from the prewar era.  Items originally packaged in the set but differing in minutia were purposely swapped with matching items by speculators to prevent potential buyers from questioning authenticity and souring the deal.  Add to the fray the factory running changes, material shortages, parts overruns and Luigi's lost weekend, the chances of totally identical sets during an entire year's production is slim.  These are the types of prewar sets we have left to conduct CSI's on.  It's the main reason I question anything that Lionel didn't actually print themselves.  Who's to say the Greenberg's list I'm quoting from is complete or accurate? 

  Postwar is better documented and far more accurate for sure.

Rant over

Bruce

Very well explained brwebster.  To have all the printed reference books available ,costs a small fortune.  Plus the fact that some are out of print, and hard to come by.  Are you, or do you collect prewar Lionel.  If so, there is a new website that is being created to promote Prewar Lionel trains, to try and mimic Postwar websites, and build it up for people to get needed info for the Prewar items.  We can use anyone's input, to make it somewhere that people can get information. 

If you want to check it out,     Www.prewarlionel.com, and the site is free to join.

quote:

To have all the printed reference books available ,costs a small fortune

True. But on the other hand, unless enough of us purchase the books that are available, the flow of books will stop. (This is not directed at anyone, just a general comment)

CW,

This is so very true. I just sold one goodsize box 35# full of my excess prewar reference material to one lucky forum member. For a deeply discounted price. The one exception, everything is out of print.

I haven't purchased every single reference guide as they were published. I do have a fairly good reference library that includes books that are not exactly in my focus area.

Some folks may not realize that the information in various editions of the Greenberg price guides isn't always brought forward in newer editions. So I have kept all my old prices guides, and will pick up ones I don't have when the opportunity arises.