Help: 2 Rail lightweight passenger trucks.

Really easy.  The side frames unscrew.  Make .040 brass bolsters, and re-assemble.  If starting with HiRail, drill the bronze bushings #41 for NWSL wheelsets.

NWSL may make wheelsets that do not need drilling.    Most passenger cars use 36 inch diameter wheels.

As for the offset kingpin, that is done to allow use on sharper curves.    Walthers did this for decades on their 6 wheel trucks.     Weaver made an injection molded version in Engineering plastic (delrin is a brand).   These roll very very well but the sides are one piece castings.   You might find these at train shows or perhaps from an online vendor.    Walthers made and now Scale City Designs make kits for these type trucks, I don't know the prototype..   Theirs are diecast zamak and the castings are generally quite sharp.   Assembly is simply screwing the bolster to the side frames.  

I have a pair of 2 rail GGD lightweight trucks if you are interested.

Ken

Great suggestions. Thanks guys.

I think I will try to pull a set apart and add a simple brass bolster.  I really like the MTH detail and can't beat the price for a ready-to-wire 2 rail set.

For the money I think they're the closest match for the CNW 400 lightweight cars.  I just need to center and lower the kingpin point for my Wichman car kits.

I'll see how it works out and post the results.  Thanks again!

Don't forget - you can use the existing bolster as a drill jig for the first one.  Once you get a brass bolster exactly the way you want it, you can make more as fast as you can cut brass rectangles.

Wheel diameter has nothing to do with journal size.  Scale wheels have larger journals.

If you start with HiRail, consider narrowing the side frames.

Agree the MTH side frame appears to be the correct (or most closely correct) for the PS C&NW light weight cars.

Very impressed with your project here too, can you post some additional photos as this progresses? I have five of these kits in my queue and any info or narrative on their assembly would be most appreciated.   

if you dislike the result of the conversion. consider the truck kits offered by Keil-Line for the 41N lightweight truck you show.

I have several pairs available.

I have found no logical difference in journals between scale and 3-rail wheelsets.     All the Atlas ones I have dealt with have the same axles, whether 2 or 3 rail.    I have pulled the 3 rail wheels from some of the axles and replaced them with 2 rail wheels.

On most of the Lionel stuff I have converted, the 3 rail axles have larger journals than the 2 rail ones I used.   On some MTH cars, they have gone both ways.

I generally use needle point axles these days and they roll better.      Older Walthers and scalecraft may have larger diameter axles.

I wonder if there was enough demand here for the Protocraft modern 41 type 2 rail trucks with real ball bearings, if they'd make more?

Best truck I have owned so far. The next run they released was all proto48. I didn't have the cash to buy the standard 2 rail out. I wish I had.

I do like the way the MTH versions roll so well.

I have not gotten my hands on the Wasatch to compare. I hear they are the best.

The MTH truck sets I've ordered should be here next week. They are ready made 2 Rail trucks. So I don't believe I'll have any problems with wheel size or journal size.  As mentioned by others above, they're (obviously) just made to match and easily 2 rail existing MTH cars with their proprietary kingpin mount style and off-set for tighter radius.  Ready to roll and prepped for wiring, I couldn't beat the price at $26.95 a pair, even with the need to modify.

I ordered the Atlas truck sets first because Eddy said he uses them and for a reasonable price he knows they work with his kits.  I have half 7071 (black) and half 7070 (silver) because nobody seems to have enough in stock.  I figured I'd re-paint them all a matching black if I decide to use them.  New in box I figured I'll just sell them if I use the MTH.

I ordered the MTH after seeing the detail prototype matches better to a 41-N type. Plus all the same color. 10 for the 401 Models Kits I'm getting and an 11th for a possible future Parlor Observation Car kit Eddy is still developing. He agreed the detail is awesome on the MTH truck, but the design is problematic.

I'll post pictures of what I do and progress with these cars on the O Gauge C&NW photo thread...

https://ogrforum.com/...c/151773314445966457

Thanks again for the suggestions.

Will

I have found no logical difference in journals between scale and 3-rail wheelsets. All the Atlas ones I have dealt with have the same axles, whether 2 or 3 rail. I have pulled the 3 rail wheels from some of the axles and replaced them with 2 rail wheels.

That is strange. Almost all of the 3-rail wheelsets I have replaced have journals somewhere around .070 in diameter.  NWSL wheelsets are just a shade under .090 (I could look it up, but it is too early).  I have not done any Atlas trucks, so maybe they are closer to NWSL.  If you are using Atlas axles with scale wheels then you do not have to modify the Atlas side frame.  And if you are using pointed scale axles in 3-rail sideframes, you are mis-matching, since most are set up for shouldered journals.  That, and they will probably fall out, since scale wheelsets are narrower by a bunch.

It isn't a logical difference - it is a physical difference.  

MTH 2-rail trucks arrived last week. I will definitely use them.

The Atlas trucks are more robust, with heaver weight and wheels, but the detail for my prototype project is so much better [edit: more appropriate 😉] on the MTH. Not to mention much less expensive.  I imagine some of that is due to use of plastic for some of the details on the MTH trucks.

Plenty of parts I won't need....

After disassembly it should very easy, (as Bob stated), to fashion some simple bolsters at the height, width, and position that I want using the existing side frame holes and screws. Then somehow mount the power contact connection assembly to the bolster. (Which I might skip altogether and instead use a battery power set up to LED the cars)

More progress to come.....

I would suggest that the MTH vs. Atlas detail question is not an issue of which is better, but more along the lines of which is correct for the car your are working on.  Lightweight passenger trucks went through several generations of development and some had more detail than others.  Amfleet cars don't have much detail in the side frames at all.

Having said that, your MTH set does look to be correct for picture of the car you posted.  I purchased several pairs of MTH trucks from their woodside cars in 2 rail for use under my All Nation CNJ style cars.  The trucks are are not exact, but at $30 a pair they are easy to modify and make very believable.

Good luck with your project!

Agreed, instead of "better", I should have said the detail is more "appropriate" on the 41-N style MTH trucks for the prototype I am modelling, as opposed to the 41-ND style of the Atlas.   

I don't really have the tools to use brass but I made a styrene bolster with a center mount.  It seems to work fine on a Lionel car I converted to 2 rail.  It was easy to use the existing bolster as a drill guide.  I lowered the truck mounting too by reducing the height of the styreen bolster.

@Tom D. posted:

I don't really have the tools to use brass.....

I really didn't either.  Quality tools definitely can cost a lot, but last longer and can do the job better.

However, I don't mind picking up a cheapie once in a while for a specific purpose.  Not every inexpensive tool is garbage or piece of junk.

I just picked up a pair of inexpensive and small sized toys I plan to dedicate just to my hobby bench top.  Should make work a little easier and more accurate than hand drill or saw.  Each was only around $40 bucks...

I'm actually kind of excited to see how the 2" High RPM cutoff saw works out. Should be good for clean accurate cuts on brass strip, pipe, rod, and angles.

@WITZ 41 posted:

I really didn't either.  Quality tools definitely can cost a lot, but last longer and can do the job better.

However, I don't mind picking up a cheapie once in a while for a specific purpose.  Not every inexpensive tool is garbage or piece of junk.

I just picked up a pair of inexpensive and small sized toys I plan to dedicate just to my hobby bench top.  Should make work a little easier and more accurate than hand drill or saw.  Each was only around $40 bucks...

I'm actually kind of excited to see how the 2" High RPM cutoff saw works out. Should be good for clean accurate cuts on brass strip, pipe, rod, and angles.

Nice. Where'd you pick them up?

Here is a Lionel 21" Pennsy sleeper that I 2-Railed last year to tuck into my Seaboard Silver Meteor/Silver Star Sunset 3rd Rail trains.  Lionel's truck is the same prototype as MTH with the 41N11 which is right for this Pennsy car, but wrong for all of the UP 21" cars as they had CUDO trucks (Only Kemtron, PRB, Wasatch, and Sunset/Golden Gate have made those).  The caveat was/is I used the Lionel 2-Rail conversion set wheels which is only available in 33" diameter, the prototype had 36".  All of that said, the car matched up perfectly with the Sunset 3rd Rail Meteor cars which is what I was after to make it blend in.  The car also rolls very freely and since then I've purchased several more Lionel cars to do 2-Rail projects on for various projects. 

Please let us know how your MTH trucks turned out.  I'm going to do a similar project with some MTH baggage cars I  want to 2-Rail and would love to be able to just swap the wheels vs. the entire truck.  Sounds like NWSL #11s are the way to go. 

Happy Railroading!

Railthunder, very nice!

Dan Weinhold

@AGHRMatt posted:

Nice. Where'd you pick them up?

Matt, I believe that's all from Harbor Freight?

.064 Brass strips arrived last week.

They're robust and weighty enough for good strength and base of support. Proto-48.....haha, not so much.  They'll be fine for a simple but nice looking working runner.

Once I have an acceptable master bolster blank, I'll  make jigs for the hobby fine cut saw and drill press. The width of the 1" strips are about an 1/8 of an inch too wide to fit on the side frame lip due to detail parts.  I'll have to bevel the corners for a snug and square fit.  I'm aiming to get the resting hieght the same as the Atlas 7071 bolster since Eddy said he knows those work for his cars.

I'd like to tap the frame mount holes for the existing MTH screws. Hardware stores don't have any taps small enough.

Anyone have a recommendation on tap bits for small/micro sized screws?

@Engineer-Joe posted:

Matt, I believe that's all from Harbor Freight?

Matt, yes., Thanks Joe.

Sorry I missed your question. Saw is from Harbor Freight. I was going to order online then realized there's a store in Bloomington. I've seen slightly larger Ones but without the precision higher RPMs.  The The drill press was a cheapie on sale at Menards.

Railthunder, your trucks look great.

Du Bro makes a nice 5 piece metric tap set that includes drill bits.

I’ve been doing some of the same. Except I’m going from 2 rail to 3. Assembling a milk train using 2 rail brass. I modified a Lionel truck much in the same manner your doing for a Butterdish car.

I found out the Lionel truck is a longer wheelbase than the prototype. The reason for the offset mount. It also ended up centering the truck better and avoiding some detail parts. I find the 2 rail wheelsets are hit or miss on 3 rail Gargraves. I’ll take the reliability every time if it’s feasible enough to do.

Nice work Dave. Thanks.

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I've moved ahead a bit on the work.

Used part of the MTH bolster as a template.  After filing it down to smooth. I used two of the screws as guides for the brass strip and it aligns nicely.

Bit mark the screw holes using the MTH part and simple cross scoring to locate center hole mark.

I'll take time and care on the first bolster blank to make a master.  Once I have that I'll set up the jigs for the rest. 

I'll post more progress as I go. 

Well, proof of concept worked out.  Learned a couple things along the way trouble shooting.  I'll definitely have to be more precise when drilling the holes. My trial attempt was a bit cattywampus.

Sometimes the simplest solution to achieve my objective can be good enough.

So I prepped an option #2 proof in concept.

I removed the coupler and Dremeled off the arm.  Using grinder I flattened the mounting surface. Quick sand job, then drilled a small centered guide hole.  I'll drill a bigger one for the king pin screw once I'm ready to fit to the cars.

The trade-offs:

( - ) the mounting point will ride 3/8 of an inch higher.

( + ) Much easier to prep.

( + ) Original 2 Rail wiring assembly untouched and ready to go.

( + ) Keeps manufactured tight fit, sturdiness, and balance.

( + ) Did I say it so much easier?

Once I have the kits built I'll check for ride height.  I'm hoping the 2nd option ride height looks good.

My method may take a bit longer. I drill one hole. Small enough to tap and secure with the screw being used. Snug that screw tight and center the drill bit and do the same on the opposite side. Trying to at least keep everything sort of square on the brass piece. The remaining holes should go where you want them and you can switch over to a clearance drill. Then go back and hit the ones you tapped with the clearance bit. I usually leave a little meat on the edges and hit it multiple times with the belt sander to it basically is a snap fit.

Good job. My first attempt usually ends in error. After that. 3 out of 4 are up to my standards which aren’t that high.

Just curious how the MTH truck's fit & look wen installed.

Since this topic has come back to the top, I too would like to see how they look on the car!

As mentioned earlier in this topic, it's also nice to use the right trucks for the particular car in question. The main reason the MTH (and other) trucks have more apparent "detail" than the Atlas Zephyr trucks is that the latter are models of Budd trucks with disc brakes. The discs and operating cylinders (calipers) are inside the wheels, so there are no outside brake cylinders, brakes levers, brake shoes, or other interesting parts associated with clasp brakes.

According to John H. White's wonderful book, The American Railroad Passenger Car (pp. 559-560), in 1936 Edward Budd asked one of his engineers, C. L. Eksergian, to develop a modern car brake, which led to the Budd Company's development of the disc brake. This brake was fitted to a Burlington coach in 1938, with very good results. The disc brakes were more efficient than clasp brakes and lasted much longer. They were commercially introduced by Budd in 1946, but the railroads were slow to adopt them. The California Zephyr (1949), built by Budd of course, was one of the first trains (the first?) to be fitted with disc brakes on all cars.

I have been following , this with great interest,  I currently have a thread  on the  Detailing of Passenger Cars,  I have dreaded the trucks' ,  currently  I'm working on an upgrade of Weaver  20"  aluminum cars ,  to full  scale . The  weaver Trucks as well as  many others in " O Gauge " are a hot mess .   Since I re configured and detailed the under body my issue has been the truck height  and how it fits in relation to the center beam of the car. ( Most 3 Rail cars riding too high  on the trucks { like wearing your pants with the legs 6" too short} .)   Your info has been very helpful in correcting that problem.......  Just a note I have eliminated some of friction and all of the flickering , by removing the wipers or pick up shoes , and wiring  the cars with LED's  into a  an on board  rechargeable battery pack.

I added a link to your  thread  to mine ,  I hope thats ok ? If not I will remove it

Your trucks are looking good to me. I can't wait to see the them on the cars.