2 Rail to 3 Rail Conversion Question

Joe Foehrkolb (rrjjf on the forum), of Baldwin Forge & Machine, is an expert at converting 3-Rail locomotive models to 2-Rail. Joe, and other Machinists, have told me, and others, that there was now way he/they would "destroy" a fantastic 2-Rail SCALE steam locomotive model by "converting" it to 3-Rail, even if it was financially practical. A good friend of mine has three Western Maryland O SCALE models, the 4-6-6-4, the 4-8-4, and the huge 2-10-0, and they are truly works of art, and generally VERY expensive.

This obviously isn't what you want to hear, however it is the reality of the situation. 

Ryan,

First, do a search as this subject comes up from time to time. Lots of valuable information in those other threads that may not re-surface here and you won't want to miss out.

I have this exact project on my list (3 locomotives waiting). Motivation the same as you-none were available in 3R. However, I'm now at the point of just adding 2R track and running as designed. 

Ron H has done this, he'll probably add his comments. His worked good with ERR.

The locomotives you listed will require large radius curves-well beyond 36" radius (072). The drivers will all be flanged.

As for track, you didn't specify what you have. Traditional Lionel tubular track will be a no go for 2R flanges.

Cheapest option is to add a 2R track loop and run it as such. If you want the middle rail, add it to the 2R track for appearance.

DCS or ERR can be added-addtional expense. Not difficult. Same as upgrading a convential locomotive to command.

Another factor-If value is a concern, you just made an expensive 2R model into a $100 locomotive (Opinion-which is why I haven't taken the drill press to my 3). May or may not matter to you.

Make sure to photograph it and post pictures for others as you progress. Many would benefit from your effort as this seems to be a common request.

Thank you guys for the information. I'm in transition with my layout. We recently moved, so I had to tear down my layout and am currently just running a carpet central until we buy a new house. I use Gargraves with Ross switches. My minimum curve on my layout was 0-96, except for a couple of spots in the yard that were 0-72. 

I considered doing exactly that when I get to the point of building a layout again - just adding 2-rail track and running as designed. I also have weighed converting to 2-rail period. All of my locomotives except 2 (3rd Rail) are MTH Premier (which have the switch to convert from 3-rail to 2-rail). I just don't know that I want to tackle converting almost 200 pieces of rolling stock to 2-rail, plus the added cost of new track and switches. 

Question (because I don't know) and I apologize if it's a stupid one - do the brass locomotives smoke/sound like MTH/3rd Rail/Lionel Legacy, etc.? 

I really want to have the J1 and the I2 added to my collection (I'll have to find an I2 when it comes available). They're beautiful models. 

If the locomotive you are thinking about is "Car & Locomotive Shop" or Henry Bultmann, your plan converts a $2000 locomotive with the world's best mechanism into a $100 model.  If you can afford that, you should have no trouble with the $500 it would take to convert flanges, add rollers, smoke, and sound.

The easiest way to do what you want is to find a 3- rail locomotive with a mechanism that is approximately what you want, remove and eBay the good 2-rail mechanism, and install the 3-rail in its entirety.  We just did that with a Lobaugh Berkshire and it worked out quite well.  I got the experience, plus a good Lobaugh mechanism, and the customer, while happy, converted a pair of $350 models into a pair of $100 models.

And if you decide to just install a 2-rail loop, O-96 will not do it.  You need a 70" radius loop for a Northern, which is O-140.  Even that is tight for a truly scale Northern.

Good luck.  Keep us posted.

If I am not mistaken the WM 4-8-4 was Henrys first import and were sold direct by him for around 3K at least initally, I knew Henry well and spoke to him often at O scale meets.

Another option for the OP-kit bash his desired locomotive.

Mechanism are on the bay.  However, I've had a heck of a time finding 10 wheeled drivers.  I have a few projects on 'hold' until I can source some.

Details parts are available from PSC.

On line Metals has brass tube.  DCS / ERR / DCC components are available.

Little more involved than converting a 2R to 3R locomotive.  However, at the end of the day he'll have what he wants and didn't take the money 'hit'!

As I recall the C&LS Potomac (4-8-4)  was originally priced at $2500 until a certain time after which Henry raised the price to $3000. I purchased mine at the Chicago show a few years ago in a trade and was looking for a specific road number - 1412- which was the road number of the last one built. That road number was important to me as I have a photo of myself in the cab of the real 1412.

The WM I-2 decapods were made by Overland Models. Although I have one of them I never bothered to check whether the center driver is blind. If not, that would be simple enough to do and would permit the decapod to negotiate a tighter turn than the Potomac.

Since you like big WM steam power have you considered the MTH WM 4-6-6-4 which is a correct scale size locomotive and very nicely done ? Obviously factory 3 rail but I have no idea about smoke, talking cab crew, station sounds, sloshing water in the tender,  and other such electronic jazz. As HW posted earlier, the majority of us 2 railers are not interested in much of the electronic features. But, sound is starting to be attractive to some of us.

One major difference I have seen between 2 and 3 railers wanting sound is the volume desired. Most 3 railers I know want it LOUD. Most 2 railers want subdued sounds.

Sorry to impugn the Bultmann stuff with a lowball.  I have no idea what the market is, and just pulled two grand out of a hat.  I sort of thought it was low, but I used it to make a point. I met Henry on multiple occasions, admired what he was doing, and was disappointed that it did not work out.  I sincerely hope MMW will have better luck.

One does not see 3- rail mechanisms on the used market.  May I suggest purchasing the entire locomotive, stealing the mechanism, then eBaying the parts?  The MTH Decapod is probably a great place to start for either a different Decapod or a 2-10-2.

I bought an MTH Hudson, and while it would run 2-rail, I was so dissatisfied with the non-scale mechanism I pulled it, made my own with proper frame extensions and cylinders, used the MTH rods and valve gear, and sold the stripped frame and drivers for a hundred bucks!  My auction started at $1.99, no reserve.

Oh, yeah - the MTH Decapod may still be pricey.  But if you consider that we originally were talking about spending an additional $500 or so to convert what is now judged to be a $3000 model into a $100 model, the MTH solution is dirt-cheap, available, and easy.

Maybe "easy" but, it sure doesn't look anything like a Western Maryland huge 2-10-0. Thus a complete scratch built boiler, etc. would be involved, no?

I am rather certain that, as HW stated, MTH did not make the very large WM I-2 decapod that had the huge tender. I don't know if MTH made the much smaller WM decapod (Russian?)

MTH has made several runs of the larger WM consolidation (H-9?) in both 2 and 3 rail.

I believe bob2 was referrring to my comment about the scarce 3R, 10 wheel mechanisms.  Incredibly hard to find.  By purchasing a complete locomotive, I could use the mechanism for my purpose and sell the rest for parts.

And, as HW stated, in addition to using the 10 wheel mechanism, the OP would have to do a lot of building on his own to get his desired end result...

Hoo-boy....so many of us would like to do that, with three rail mfrs. mostly into deja'

vu of a limited number of prototypes.  As for converting cars as asked above, no problem...just swap trucks and couplers unless you're running 0-27...then you'll need

a wider radius.  I have converted two rail brass cabooses, and a couple of brass railbuses, that did not have Rolls-Royce mechanisms, by replacing with three rail.  Some items I would like to do are off-putting for reasons such as the McKeen car with its odd front truck (not to mention its acquisition cost!! in two rail).  We can rejoice that Third Rail heard that call, while PSC and many others ignore the pounding on their doors, apparently unaware that three railers have money, too.  I have a long list of protoypes for which two rail steam loco models are available, and a dry well in three rail, beginning with small two truck Heislers up to the Little River 2-4-4-2, all available in two rail.  Seems like I belong to a large group.  I chicken out of trying to convert

a two rail steamer to three rail, so just kitbash.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm weighing options - either adding a loop of 2-rail track, or converting to 2-rail altogether. I don't hold out a lot of hope that the J1 or I2 will be made in 3-rail any time soon. 

rheil - I have the 4-6-6-4 Challenger. It's an awesome locomotive. And no, you are correct, MTH did not make the I2. They made the much smaller Russian Decapod (which I also have). I also own several of the H-9 Consolidations, including 2 of the ones that came out this year. 

86TA is correct.  All I was suggesting was that if one wanted five axles suitable for three rail, the cheapest and easiest way out was the MTH.  There are several options, including the PRR in both "scale" and Railking.

However, I hope we helped in your decision to convert the Bultmann models.  That is what you asked.  It is indeed doable.

Well, I made the plunge and bought the 4-8-4. It is also cab number 1412. Now, I think I might just convert to 2-rail. I can cross the J1 off my wish list. Now I just need one of those Overland Models 2-10-0's to come available and I'll be very happy with my steam roster  

Ryan,

Now that you have made the decision to come to the dark side (2 rail) you may want to plan on visiting the Strasburg, PA, 2 rail show on August 8th. I have seen Overland WM I-2 decapods for sale there on occasion. Several of the dealers there are WM modelers who always have various motive power for sale.

Rheil- I might do that. I only live a little over an hour from Strasburg. I need to read up more on 2 rail. I definitely like the look better. As I mentioned in a previous post above, I'm in transition with my layout so it will be a year or two until I can start building a permanent layout again. I'Ve got some time to do some planning as we house hunt. 

I also live just a little over an hour from the Strasburg Fire Hall and attend all three shows there every year. I doubt you will be disappointed by attending the show, and your decision to go to 2 rail will probably be fortified. You may be surprised by the variety of products you will see at this show that you would not normally see at a 3 rail show.

Joe Foehrkolb, the fellow mentioned in an earlier post by Hot Water, will be there and can discuss 3 to 2 rail conversions with you and I will have tables next to Joe with the Sunset Models and Golden Gate Depot display.

John Sethian, an OGR forum member will also be there.  John runs his great 2 rail PRR layout on DCS and I am sure he will be happy to discuss 2 rail DCS operation with you.

Well worth the hop over to the show/meet - lots of good stuff to be found and even some bargains,

I wish I could regularly show up at Strasburg, but it is a fur piece....I also am not

converting to O scale, which still out prices even upscale and electronic three rail, with brass engines and cars, but will keep lobbying for more variety in three rail.  This so

you don't, as you now do in two rail, have to scratchbuild and kitbash so much of it.  Which you do in three rail, too, to get that variety, and is the subject of this post. 

Despite rumors to the contrary, there is no requirement to buy brass to be in O scale,

I agree With Martin.  You can get 2- rail freight cars all day long on the used market for $25 plus shipping. Locomotives can be had for under $400 on a good day.  One of the reasons O Scale brass is so expensive is that it is simply more detaied and more accurate than 3-rail.  And besides, a lot of 3- rail stuff now comes in 2- rail - see MTH and 3rd Rail.

I am a 3-rail modeler but I do have some 2-rail equipment.  I am fortunate to have some friends who are members of 2 rail O gauge club where I can run my 2 rail equipment.  

NH Joe