It will be interesting to see if the 2016 SD70s have the IR sensor on them, after all we have been told that Lionel has no plans of making and IR sensor track piece in S.
Ben
Mark,
You are correct, Flyonel is trying to bring more people into S, like me. If they succeed in adding alot of new people, they will offer more products, which will bring more people, which will bring more products etc, etc, etc.
Cost is a factor and alot of people are hurting these days. By making good, reliable scale (hi-rail) trains with sounds and remote control only lures people away from HO and O scales and maybe even new hobby people.
We all want our favorite railroads, engines etc, but if only a few people want the same things, it won't happen. Think the big picture. Lionel/American Flyer is trying and it bothers me that people can't understand what is happening.
I personally thought of going to S many years ago, but the selection was poor, the prices high, the equipment outdated and track looked crappy. There is no guarantee that this will be the "golden age" of S, but if everyone criticizes the efforts of manufacturers, we'll be back at the same old/same old rut.
I do plan to purchase a Flyer Chief Northern and am very happy with the Berk.
If this was about cost and the future of the hobby, Lionel would just start using WiFi or Bluetooth to control the trains. No more controllers just a cheap Android/IOS Phones or Tablets. They have already developed the programs and they work great with Flyer today as I am using it. Just drop the hand held controllers and reduce the cost. The problem is a lot of people are technology adverse and using tablets, WiFi or Bluetooth is intimidating to them. As such we need to include a controller with each engine.
--Rocco--
Right now, LionChief+ appears to be growing in fairly rapidly popularity in the O gauge market. Some are even beginning to call for some the full-scale products to be "Chiefed."
Lionel appears it will be banking on FlyerChief for the Flyer market. If it increases the customer base for Flyer or S in general, it will be a good thing.
However, it remains to be seen if the "Chief" systems eventually paints Lionel into a corner that it will have an awkward time getting out of. Only time will tell.
Personally, I'll have little to no use for FlyerChief as I've pretty much stopped buying Flyer/Hirail stuff anyway to try to concentrate on my backlog of scale projects.
Rusty
Something to remember for those that use Legacy. The FlyerChief locomotives will run on Legacy powered track, you just have to use the FlyerChief controller to run it. You can still run your Legacy locomotives at the same time.
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:Something to remember for those that use Legacy. The FlyerChief locomotives will run on Legacy powered track, you just have to use the FlyerChief controller to run it. You can still run your Legacy locomotives at the same time.
Rusty
We Legacy folk are very well aware of that. FlyerChief is OK for many (the child, the beginner, the parsimonious, and those with no TMCC), but it is a big step backwards in several ways and one is then forced to fumble with multiple controllers. Sorry. No Legacy, no sale. 
Bob
Bob Bubeck posted:Rusty Traque posted:Something to remember for those that use Legacy. The FlyerChief locomotives will run on Legacy powered track, you just have to use the FlyerChief controller to run it. You can still run your Legacy locomotives at the same time.
Rusty
We Legacy folk are very well aware of that. FlyerChief is OK for many (the child, the beginner, the parsimonious, and those with no TMCC), but it is a big step backwards in several ways and one is then forced to fumble with multiple controllers. Sorry. No Legacy, no sale.
Bob
Oooo. Parsimonious. Nice $5 word there...
(Yeah, I had to look it up...)
Still, it's worth repeating every so often. Newbies might not realize it if they eventually upgrade to Legacy.
And FlyerChief will probable attract more people than zombie boxcars...
Rusty
"I personally thought of going to S many years ago, but the selection was poor, the prices high, the equipment outdated and track looked crappy. "
Francine,
Not sure what you saw for track nor when, but AM has had their track for more than 20 years ago and SHS was full tilt in 2005. I don’t think anything better has come along since then – other than pure scale track – that I am aware of. Some also consider that time period the ‘golden age” of S. As for equipment – again, other than scale – AM and SHS have not been surpassed yet.
Both the Flyonel and MTH trackage systems are a knock-off of the SHS design (which was a knock-off of Bachmann?) with the roadbed and MTH has reissued SHS flex.
I’m curious, what track and equipment were you looking at?
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
Tom Stoltz posted:Both the Flyonel and MTH trackage systems are a knock-off of the SHS design (which was a knock-off of Bachmann?) with the roadbed and MTH has reissued SHS flex.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
SHS track is actually based on Kato's HO and N scale track. Don originally had it designed to use a similar style of rail joiner plugs as Kato, until Kato told them that would be a no-no. (Patents, you know...)
I'm still surprised that Lionel's track is compatible -with minor modification- with SHS/MTH track.
Rusty
I wish lionel would bring out a trackmobile like the one in O. Also, I have a friend that's got a couple. They are even TMCC.
I think if lionel would do the same tooling and products they have in O, the S side would grow huge, but I know cost wise that's not gonna happen anytime soon. They either need to **** or get off the pot!
Rusty Traque posted:Bob Bubeck posted:Rusty Traque posted:Something to remember for those that use Legacy. The FlyerChief locomotives will run on Legacy powered track, you just have to use the FlyerChief controller to run it. You can still run your Legacy locomotives at the same time.
Rusty
We Legacy folk are very well aware of that. FlyerChief is OK for many (the child, the beginner, the parsimonious, and those with no TMCC), but it is a big step backwards in several ways and one is then forced to fumble with multiple controllers. Sorry. No Legacy, no sale.
Bob
<snip>
... And FlyerChief will probable attract more people than zombie boxcars...
Rusty
True, but almost anything would.
Bob
I am actually contemplating S as my room is good sized but still small for what I want to do in O 3 rail. With S hi rail I could squeeze more into my room. I do like the Lionel Legacy products the flyer chief seems ok too. Overall the pickings are slim.
What about MTH? They seem to be stuck in neutral regarding their S hi rail line of trains. I really like American Models line of engines and rolling stock and their track seems appealing too. But to add ERR etc to an AM engine is an added cost. S for all its positives seems to be the orphan scale amongst the big manfactuers.
Seacoast posted:I am actually contemplating S as my room is good sized but still small for what I want to do in O 3 rail. With S hi rail I could squeeze more into my room. I do like the Lionel Legacy products the flyer chief seems ok too. Overall the pickings are slim.
What about MTH? They seem to be stuck in neutral regarding their S hi rail line of trains. I really like American Models line of engines and rolling stock and their track seems appealing too. But to add ERR etc to an AM engine is an added cost. S for all its positives seems to be the orphan scale amongst the big manfactuers.
Orphan is probably a good term. S has struggled since it's inception way back in the 1940's
Getting back to today, prior to MTH purchasing the S Helper Service line, Lionel was the only major manufacturer of S. Lionel's production of American Flyer has ebbed and flowed over the past 30 years. Seems like every time Flyer gets some traction, there's a management change and it's back to square one.
Good as their products are, American Models is just this side of a being cottage industry and doesn't have the resources of Lionel or MTH. The former S Helper Service grew out of "helping" American Model introduce new products. SHS was unable to regroup after a shake up in the Chinese manufacturing sector and was eventually sold to MTH.
Basically, MTH has run into delays molding the former S Helper Service line into their own image.
The MTH F3's are now due in March 2016, which is the 3rd or 4th slip of the initial delivery date. Their latest new car, the piggy-back flats, have missed the Dec 2015 delivery date.
The only other near "major" manufacturer of S is S Scale America (by Des Plaines Hobbies) which has a line of freight cars. Unfortunately, SSA has also been rendered stagnant by the Chinese manufacturing shake-up.
Rusty
Tom Stoltz posted:"I personally thought of going to S many years ago, but the selection was poor, the prices high, the equipment outdated and track looked crappy. "
Francine,
Not sure what you saw for track nor when, but AM has had their track for more than 20 years ago and SHS was full tilt in 2005. I don’t think anything better has come along since then – other than pure scale track – that I am aware of. Some also consider that time period the ‘golden age” of S. As for equipment – again, other than scale – AM and SHS have not been surpassed yet.
Both the Flyonel and MTH trackage systems are a knock-off of the SHS design (which was a knock-off of Bachmann?) with the roadbed and MTH has reissued SHS flex.
I’m curious, what track and equipment were you looking at?
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
Hi Tom,
I did the SHS in 2000, but the price was high and nobody local was carrying it. But without engines that I like - it made any attempt to find track pointless.
Francine
Rusty Traque posted:Seacoast posted:I am actually contemplating S as my room is good sized but still small for what I want to do in O 3 rail. With S hi rail I could squeeze more into my room. I do like the Lionel Legacy products the flyer chief seems ok too. Overall the pickings are slim.
What about MTH? They seem to be stuck in neutral regarding their S hi rail line of trains. I really like American Models line of engines and rolling stock and their track seems appealing too. But to add ERR etc to an AM engine is an added cost. S for all its positives seems to be the orphan scale amongst the big manfactuers.
Orphan is probably a good term. S has struggled since it's inception way back in the 1940's
Getting back to today, prior to MTH purchasing the S Helper Service line, Lionel was the only major manufacturer of S. Lionel's production of American Flyer has ebbed and flowed over the past 30 years. Seems like every time Flyer gets some traction, there's a management change and it's back to square one.
Good as their products are, American Models is just this side of a being cottage industry and doesn't have the resources of Lionel or MTH. The former S Helper Service grew out of "helping" American Model introduce new products. SHS was unable to regroup after a shake up in the Chinese manufacturing sector and was eventually sold to MTH.
Basically, MTH has run into delays molding the former S Helper Service line into their own image.
The MTH F3's are now due in March 2016, which is the 3rd or 4th slip of the initial delivery date. Their latest new car, the piggy-back flats, have missed the Dec 2015 delivery date.
The only other near "major" manufacturer of S is S Scale America (by Des Plaines Hobbies) which has a line of freight cars. Unfortunately, SSA has also been rendered stagnant by the Chinese manufacturing shake-up.
Rusty
Thank you Rusty for the history and story of S in short. I took another look at American Models website today and I am drawn to their passenger cars too, Cottage industry or not they seem to have done a nice job in producing a good looking passenger car. I like their track too, are there any disadvantages with AM track vs. Lionel or MTH/SHS?
My apologizes I am not trying to hi-jack this thread.
Seacoast posted:Thank you Rusty for the history and story of S in short. I took another look at American Models website today and I am drawn to their passenger cars too, Cottage industry or not they seem to have done a nice job in producing a good looking passenger car. I like their track too, are there any disadvantages with AM track vs. Lionel or MTH/SHS?
My apologizes I am not trying to hi-jack this thread.
No problem. Threads tend to wander around a bit after a while.
Perhaps the only "disadvantage" to AM track is it doesn't have molded on roadbed like S-Trax and FasTrack. Think Atlas HO Snap-Track. Also, the rail is a larger code than Lionel's or MTH/SHS's.
I'm going to assume your looking into S from the Flyer/Hirail side and not the scale (small wheel flanges) side.
AM track works very well with Flyer and HiRail. The modular group I used to belong to uses it and it has proven very reliable and durable over the years.
Rusty
American Models makes great products. I have purchased many engines and passenger car sets from them. The total average cost for an AM engine including purchase of the engine and retrofit of TMCC, cruise and Railsounds is about $600. These are engines Lionel will never make in S. I have some SHS engines but never had them converted. There is not enough space in the shell for all the needed electronics. The only viable way to get full features is with a tethered power unit and dummy. I suspect this could be a challenge MTH is having, reengineering the drive, chassis and DCS electronics to get it all to fit.
I ordered a Northern with FlyerChief from the new catalog just to see how it performs and fits in with the layout.
"I like their track too, are there any disadvantages with AM track vs. Lionel or MTH/SHS?"
George:
The AM rail is code 148, while the Flyonel and MTH is code 138. Total difference is .010”. I go back and forth between the two different systems (actually SHS and AM) without any adaptors or modification using the code 148 rail joiners. I run scale, Flyer and Hi-rail with no problems. The AM track is a different color than the nickel silver. Weathered, the difference only shows on top of the rail head… AM is noticeably brassier, but there is enough nickel-silver in the mix that is does not corrode. The head width of the AM rail is .060” with the SHS profile rail being .048”. I do notice this difference a bit, but the trains don’t seem to mind.
If you are looking at flex, the ties look better with AM (less uniform) and the spike heads are a lot better. The AM flex is a bit harder to work with than the SHS (now MTH), but not that bad.
The AM turnouts are a true #4 as opposed to a continuous radius. I have seen on this forum many people saying the AM #4 is a 27” R – NOT TRUE. You can not lay it in the middle of a 27” R curve and hope that is will just fit in. There is a lot of straight track to the diverging route. The #4s are a giant step toward more prototypical design than original AF switches (which are a continuous radius of about 19.125” R and should not have a frog number designation. But if you want one, I would say #2 1/2 is a lot closer than a #3. I have never used a AF switch with SHS S-Trax, but have wondered how the 19.125” radius plays out with the 18.55” R of the SHS Track – sorry to be so tangential) or the various offerings of MTH and Flyonel.
The AM #4 will operate Flyer and Hi-rail or can be modified to handle scale, but will not allow operation all 3 at once.
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
Thanks Tom. I'm heading from NH to Amherst Train show show tomorrow. I am hoping some S hi rail will be there, for me it's better in person.
thanks
Bob Bubeck posted;We Legacy folk are very well aware of that. FlyerChief is OK for many (the child, the beginner, the parsimonious, and those with no TMCC), but it is a big step backwards in several ways and one is then forced to fumble with multiple controllers. Sorry. No Legacy, no sale.
Bob
The s-scale Legacy works great with my MRC dcc controller system too!
Too bad Bob about no Legacy or no sale 
I am prone to believe it could be year's before we see any Legacy S except remakes. I hope MTH comes through with new product that will run with your Legacy instead of their operating system.
I think DCS will run TMCC and with Lionel opening up the specifics on Legacy maybe DCS will now do that also. It would be great if they would let Lionel have the DCS info so Legacy could do DCS. But I know it doesn't know.
