3R Blasphemy?

Sounds cool & interesting, ….it’s your railroad, your rules,……enjoy as you see fit,…

Pat

I think that you have a good plan.  It will be interesting to learn how your hand built switches work with 3-rail wheels.  I feel that battery power is the way to go for engines.  You avoid many electrical issues with batteries.  NH Joe

There is the HONGZ forum. Kind of a catch all. Your biggest worry will be the locomotive flanges you have collected.

I have some code 48 on my railroad and some locos thump the ties. No big deal, but something to consider.

@Ron H posted:

There is the HONGZ forum. Kind of a catch all. Your biggest worry will be the locomotive flanges you have collected.

I have some code 48 on my railroad and some locos thump the ties. No big deal, but something to consider.

Thank you very much for the warning!

In that case I need to buy a section of track and take a careful look before I go full speed ahead with this.  I actually own 2 Williams Brass Niagara's one 2R (item #6602) one 3R (item #5602).  The wheels on the tenders are noticeably different.  Of course the 3R has Blind Drives the 2R doesn't, but the flanged Driver heights are noticeable different.  Also the 2R has more piping detail, but no smoke unit.  I bought the 2R so I could run at the Kingston,NY Club.

@Ron H posted:

There is the HONGZ forum. Kind of a catch all. Your biggest worry will be the locomotive flanges you have collected.

I have some code 48 on my railroad and some locos thump the ties. No big deal, but something to consider.

Ron, did you mean to say code 48 or 148? Code 48 would be suitable for N gauge.

Pete

Follow your dream. However, me, i am tired of batteries. They either need recharging all the time or replaced. Yes lots of battery powered things are convenient but oh what a pain. 

@Norton posted:

Ron, did you mean to say code 48 or 148? Code 48 would be suitable for N gauge.

Pete

Yes, of course, 148, Duh me!

Jim you're setting yourself up for a lot of work!  I totally understand that real track has only 2 rails.  If you want that look, I would start with Ross or Atlas hi-rail track and remove the center rail.  Hand-laying track is tedious, and going down to Code 148 may get you into trouble with the flanges on 3R equipment.  Most of the loco wheels are pressed on, so it's not like you will easily be able to swap wheelsets.  Heck, you'll have to pull and press wheels just to turn down the flanges!  For most of us, 3-rail O is what it is.  Only a highly skilled few can make it into something it wasn't from the factory.

I like your idea of wireless control direct to the loco.  Given the availability issues with Legacy hardware and signal issues with DCS, it makes sense.  However-  if you don't want to mess with batteries, you could get many benefits of direct RC by installing a "helper circuit" to rectify and smooth AC track power to filtered DC.  The wireless receiver won't know or care whether the DC voltage comes from a battery or a rectifier circuit, as long as it's smooth and well-regulated.

If I decide to abandon Legacy and cash out (I probably won't because I have several), that's the way I would go.  My $.02.

@Jim 1939 posted:

Follow your dream. However, me, i am tired of batteries. They either need recharging all the time or replaced. Yes lots of battery powered things are convenient but oh what a pain.

not at all

Thank you to EVERYONE for the replies.  I truly am looking for input to "flaws" in my plan.

The issue of recharging batteries is understood, as I mentioned in the opening post I have RC Electric planes.  My concern was operating time per charge.  In a prior post guys that are using, quoted 3 hours as typical which I am fine with.  If other USERS think that is overly optimistic PLEASE let me know.  May put the battery in a "power car" (box car at the head end).  Down side is can't operate the loco alone in that case.

Hmmm, i took stock of things that need charging, cell phone, tablet, laptop, tools, flashlight, e bike, probably missed some.  My one deadrail loco works fine, looking fwd to converting a few more.  To date run time has never exceeded battery capacity,  down time is when it recharges so it appear to be a viable option.

@Ted S posted:

Jim you're setting yourself up for a lot of work!  I totally understand that real track has only 2 rails.  If you want that look, I would start with Ross or Atlas hi-rail track and remove the center rail.  Hand-laying track is tedious, and going down to Code 148 may get you into trouble with the flanges on 3R equipment.  Most of the loco wheels are pressed on, so it's not like you will easily be able to swap wheelsets.  Heck, you'll have to pull and press wheels just to turn down the flanges!  For most of us, 3-rail O is what it is.  Only a highly skilled few can make it into something it wasn't from the factory.

I like your idea of wireless control direct to the loco.  Given the availability issues with Legacy hardware and signal issues with DCS, it makes sense.  However-  if you don't want to mess with batteries, you could get many benefits of direct RC by installing a "helper circuit" to rectify and smooth AC track power to filtered DC.  The decoder doesn't care if the DC voltage comes from a battery or a rectifier circuit.

If I decide to abandon Legacy and cash out (I probably won't because I have several), that's the way I would go.  My $.02.

I need to clarify a few points (now realize I wasn't specific enough in my opening post).

I do NOT currently own Legacy or any other system.  My only investment to operate at this time has been (both) bought USED at local train shows:  An oval of Atlas O 3R track (no switches), a 1950's KW for $15 which needed some help so an additional $7.50 in parts.  So nothing to sell.  I plan to keep this for testing of new purchases, and operation of a few Prewar Lionel Items that have caught my eye.

I am planning on using Micro Engineering Code 148 Flex Track.  In HO I used Atlas Flex Track and Switches.  I found it was much better than using sectional track due to less joints.

The hand laying will ONLY be the switches.  I am doing this for 3 reasons: Cost of Atlas O Switches is astronomical, ability to build "ladder switches" for the yards, I can adjust the "guard rails" for big 3R flanges.

Thank you for your comments, they are what I am looking for, to avoid pitfalls.  If you still feel this plan is flawed please let me know.

I have moved this to the 2-rail forum because it is apparent that future posting by the OP is likely to be mostly 2-rail.  He has stated he will be converting to 2-rail thus it makes sense to discuss this here.

Jim, a lot of us run three rail because thats what we started out with, at least in O scale, and by the time high rail scale locomotives and rolling stock came along we were too heavily invested in trains and/or a layout.

Given that you are just starting out I would only suggest either converting or selling off your three rail equipment and just go with two rail. Not only will it save you a ton of work but look much better.

Dead rail is up to you though I am in the group that is tired if changing or recharging batteries. The fewer the better, but thats just me.

Having spent most of my time with trains in HO I agree hand laying track and building switches is not a big a deal also greatly improves appearance.

Good luck with any direction you decide to go.

Pete

There is no blasphemy in this hobby outside of those who prefer to focus on the negative aspects over the overwhelming benefits this hobby provides to all who partake.

Good luck with your adventure and keep up apprised of your progress!

@MainLine Steam posted:

Before entering this hobby, it is important to know I flew RC Planes and Helis, most electric powered.  I also was in HO all my life so like the Scale Look.

I have bought considerable 3R equipment in the last year and a half.  I have been purchasing used (15-35 years old) 3R Scale Sized (no additional details added) Locomotives and Freight Cars.  I have also bought K-Line Passenger cars 15" and 18".  The intention all along has been not just to collect them, but to build a layout and run them.

I have been struggling with the implementation of the layout and how to control the locomotives.  Most are conventional, a couple have QSI Sound, a couple have TMCC.

Anyhow I am NOW leaning toward Wireless RC Locomotive Control with batteries (Deadrail).  I am planning to convert the passenger car lighting to LED Tape Strips.  The cars will have wire "pigtails" installed.  The Baggage car will carry the battery to power the consist.  Center rollers will be removed from everything!

This will give me the ability to use 2R Code 148 Micro Engineering Track (very scale like) and way less expensive than 3R Atlas O, and even Gargraves.  I plan to hand-build the turnouts, which is WAY Easier with 2 rails than 3.

So am I Blasphemes?  Will I be banned from the Forum for this?  Do I post in 2R from now on?

There is still time to stop me at this point!  Please let me know if I need to wear an ankle bracelet!

Your comments "adhering to Forum rules" are welcomed and actually encouraged.

You bought them they re yours to enjoy.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Please let me know if I need to wear an ankle bracelet!

Only if it makes you feel better,

In the meantime, don't worry, be happy.

Jim

  Have fun in your endeavor.  I am also fairly new to deadrail/Battery Power. Charging batteries is no problem with me cleaning track and electrical problems with legacy remote control is. Since I have changed to deadrail I really enjoy running trains. Before it seemed that in the back of my mind in running legacy before I even turned the transformer on I was going to have an issue. The only problems I have with deadrail is operators error. The only thing that I wish is that I would have started my layout like you are doing , making changes to a layout can be messy and costly.  Have fun welcome to deadrail.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Anyhow I am NOW leaning toward Wireless RC Locomotive Control with batteries (Deadrail).  I am planning to convert the passenger car lighting to LED Tape Strips.  The cars will have wire "pigtails" installed.  The Baggage car will carry the battery to power the consist.  Center rollers will be removed from everything!

So am I Blasphemes?  Will I be banned from the Forum for this?  Do I post in 2R from now on?

They are your trains.  So long as they are not pre-1970 in LN condition then whether you convert them from 3 to 2, from 2 to 3, go battery or even live stream.  I am good with your choice so long as you don't look down your nose at those who chose to go a different route. Be sure to keep us updated on your progress.

I am looking forward to your idea for converting passenger car lighting to batteries.  I am 3 rail conventional, but I have been toying with the idea of doing something similar.  I thought perhaps have mated male and female mini plugs would make a good way of connecting up the power lines so they could easily be connected and disconnected.  At the moment though this is theoretical.

@Norton posted:

Given that you are just starting out I would only suggest either converting or selling off your three rail equipment and just go with two rail. Not only will it save you a ton of work but look much better.

Dead rail is up to you though I am in the group that is tired if changing or recharging batteries. The fewer the better, but thats just me.

The advantage I see with using the 3R Steam Locomotives is, the Blind Drivers allow for smaller radius turns.  And I already have them.  However if I am going to be fighting constant derailments then it is a no-go.

The battery charging issue is a problem to me, if I can't get a decent length operating session.  It seems to this point in the discussion there are 2 distinct opinions on this.

We have communicated in the past and I highly regard your help.

I hope others reading this weigh-in with their opinions.  My background has taught me it is better to "measure twice and cut once."

@Bill N posted:

They are your trains.  So long as they are not pre-1970 in LN condition then whether you convert them from 3 to 2, from 2 to 3, go battery or even live stream.  I am good with your choice so long as you don't look down your nose at those who chose to go a different route. Be sure to keep us updated on your progress.

I am looking forward to your idea for converting passenger car lighting to batteries.  I am 3 rail conventional, but I have been toying with the idea of doing something similar.  I thought perhaps have mated male and female mini plugs would make a good way of connecting up the power lines so they could easily be connected and disconnected.  At the moment though this is theoretical.

Believe the oldest item I have is a Williams "early" (1980's) Brass Hudson.  Believe me it is NOT collectible, got it relatively cheap.  Which is what it is worth!  Not worth the price to upgrade as I am talking here.  Will look good sitting on a siding as "decoration".  Has an open tender, so might go under a coal dock getting loaded.

For Passenger cars planning on male harness at "front of car", female at rear.  Am planning a simple daisy chain (series wiring).  Others might suggest, parallel wiring.  However with LED's there can be problems with load shifting, if all strings in each car aren't equal.

@Bill Grafmiller posted:

Jim

  Have fun in your endeavor.  I am also fairly new to deadrail/Battery Power. Charging batteries is no problem with me cleaning track and electrical problems with legacy remote control is. Since I have changed to deadrail I really enjoy running trains. Before it seemed that in the back of my mind in running legacy before I even turned the transformer on I was going to have an issue. The only problems I have with deadrail is operators error. The only thing that I wish is that I would have started my layout like you are doing , making changes to a layout can be messy and costly.  Have fun welcome to deadrail.

Thanks for weighing in on this.  I appreciate each reply.  I always hated cleaning the track in HO.  Not sure if O would be better or worse.  Track is bigger, so easier to see what you are doing but...more rail width to clean.

@GG1 4877 posted:

There is no blasphemy in this hobby outside of those who prefer to focus on the negative aspects over the overwhelming benefits this hobby provides to all who partake.

Good luck with your adventure and keep up apprised of your progress!

Jonathan - I think I saw a post of yours at one time that you run 2R outdoors.  Is that correct?  If so, are you using DeadRail?  What have been your experiences positive or negative.  Thanks!

@MainLine Steam posted:

Jonathan - I think I saw a post of yours at one time that you run 2R outdoors.  Is that correct?  If so, are you using DeadRail?  What have been your experiences positive or negative.  Thanks!

Hi Jim,

My hobby at the moment is kind of a mess if I really take a look at it objectively

The short answer is no I am not currently operating in 2 rail or in dead rail, but ideally based on my current setup and location I should be.  I could operate 9 months out of the year or more if I was set up for outdoor dead rail.

The long answer is that I collect and model 1953-1960 PRR and CNJ on the Jersey Shore in 2 rail.  I collect everything else in 3 rail for operation at a club layout at the Scottsdale Railroad Park here in Arizona.  Everything else is literally everything these days.  No specific era or road, but with an emphasis on Western roads and Amtrak.

The rest of the story as the late Paul Harvey would say is that I really am just amassing trains at an alarming rate as I spend most of my free time consulting to Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD.  That has been a fulfilling even if it is not directly related to my personal train modeling.

I am learning just like everyone else on the dead rail subject.

@MainLine Steam posted:

The advantage I see with using the 3R Steam Locomotives is, the Blind Drivers allow for smaller radius turns.  And I already have them.  However if I am going to be fighting constant derailments then it is a no-go.

The battery charging issue is a problem to me, if I can't get a decent length operating session.  It seems to this point in the discussion there are 2 distinct opinions on this.

We have communicated in the past and I highly regard your help.

I hope others reading this weigh-in with their opinions.  My background has taught me it is better to "measure twice and cut once."

How long will your length of operation be. I have never had any problems with 2 hr session. After that I am ready for some pickleball.

@MainLine Steam posted:

The battery charging issue is a problem to me, if I can't get a decent length operating session.

I've tested my 3.4 ah batts and have got 3 hours continuous run time.  Like @Bill Grafmiller, I've never run a train longer than 2 hours.

This will be so addictive you will have more than one battery train.  If I have an engine on the charger, I have 4 others to choose from.  And growing.

Ron

@GG1 4877 posted:

Hi Jim,

My hobby at the moment is kind of a mess if I really take a look at it objectively

The short answer is no I am not currently operating in 2 rail or in dead rail, but ideally based on my current setup and location I should be.  I could operate 9 months out of the year or more if I was set up for outdoor dead rail.

The long answer is that I collect and model 1953-1960 PRR and CNJ on the Jersey Shore in 2 rail.  I collect everything else in 3 rail for operation at a club layout at the Scottsdale Railroad Park here in Arizona.  Everything else is literally everything these days.  No specific era or road, but with an emphasis on Western roads and Amtrak.

The rest of the story as the late Paul Harvey would say is that I really am just amassing trains at an alarming rate as I spend most of my free time consulting to Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD.  That has been a fulfilling even if it is not directly related to my personal train modeling.

I am learning just like everyone else on the dead rail subject.

Thanks for the answer.  Is it possible you posted a picture of the club layout?  Really doesn't matter though.  The time consulting for GGD has to be fun!

Based on what you have seen in Scottsdale would you do DeadRail or feed power through the tracks.  Because of the outdoor environment I would think DeadRail would be very popular, is it?  Thanks again!

@Ron045 posted:

I've tested my 3.4 ah batts and have got 3 hours continuous run time.  Like @Bill Grafmiller, I've never run a train longer than 2 hours.

This will be so addictive you will have more than one battery train.  If I have an engine on the charger, I have 4 others to choose from.  And growing.

Ron

Good point Bill and Ron on the 2 hours.  I am planning on a double track mainline.  If I run for a long period, will probably swap out consists, rather than run any one train for more than 2 hours.  Hadn't really looked at it that way.

BTW what TYPE of 3.4 ah batteries are you using?  How many cells (or nominal output voltage)?  Thanks!

I am using the MTO Li-Ion 14.8 v / 3.0AH  #09 and # 19 you can go into mtobattery.com and look under train . They have different sizes and shapes. So far I like the #19 for using if putting everything in the shell. # 09 I like if using a tender with engine. There are also other dealers that sell MTO you probably will get a price break with them. Ron45 has a series on how to on youtube. Very well done. There is a gentleman that also does how to on garden railroad. There are other battery company's but I like staying in one house. So MTO is my choice. They also have chargers that I use. Ron045 also can be very informative on your needs. And I may add others here that run deadrail. Hope this helps

@MainLine Steam posted

BTW what TYPE of 3.4 ah batteries are you using?  How many cells (or nominal output voltage)?  Thanks!

Mostly 14.4v LiIon with PCB protection.  MTO and XML.  I do have a 44 tonner that runs very well on 11.1v.

@Bill Grafmiller posted:

I am using the MTO Li-Ion 14.8 v / 3.0AH  #09 and # 19 you can go into mtobattery.com and look under train . They have different sizes and shapes. So far I like the #19 for using if putting everything in the shell. # 09 I like if using a tender with engine. There are also other dealers that sell MTO you probably will get a price break with them. Ron45 has a series on how to on youtube. Very well done. There is a gentleman that also does how to on garden railroad. There are other battery company's but I like staying in one house. So MTO is my choice. They also have chargers that I use. Ron045 also can be very informative on your needs. And I may add others here that run deadrail. Hope this helps

Very helpful, thank you very much!  I will also check out the YouTube videos.

What ever you use, painting the rail will help quite a bit!  Also, use scale ballast.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Thanks for the answer.  Is it possible you posted a picture of the club layout?  Really doesn't matter though.  The time consulting for GGD has to be fun!

Based on what you have seen in Scottsdale would you do DeadRail or feed power through the tracks.  Because of the outdoor environment I would think DeadRail would be very popular, is it?  Thanks again!

Jim,

DeadRail has a lot of potential for me as I can enjoy outdoor railroading most of the year.  There are not a lot of 2 railers in AZ in general.  I don't know of more than 3 in the entire state, but I am sure there are a few more. 

You can see photos of the Paradise and Pacific Club layout at this website.

It is a great club and very friendly.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Jim,

DeadRail has a lot of potential for me as I can enjoy outdoor railroading most of the year.  There are not a lot of 2 railers in AZ in general.  I don't know of more than 3 in the entire state, but I am sure there are a few more.

You can see photos of the Paradise and Pacific Club layout at this website.

It is a great club and very friendly.

Thanks for sending.  I see that the club layout is actually indoors.  I will explore the club site more.

Yes, the Paradise and Pacific is an indoor 3 rail operating club.  The Railroad Park that the Paradise and Pacific is located at has outdoor layouts, but they are larger ride on trains at something like 12" and 15" scale.  The 15" scale train features live steam on the weekends. 

That does bring up an interesting point though.  One thing I have been interested in and almost purchased an example of years ago was an O scale live steam locomotive.  I think it would be very entertaining to operate.

Nothing blasphemous about anything you want to do, it is your gear. There are some questions I think you need to ask yourself that I think will influence how you go:

1)The issue of wheel flange is big, scale track is designed for scale countour wheels. If you scratch build turnouts using scale rail, you likely could run into problems (maybe use something bigger than 148? I don't know what they have now). I read something online where a guy scratch built 3 rail track, and I think he used a large track  code (250?)

2)Power wise, as long as the engines have a modern can motor, they should be fine with deadrail I assume.

3)A big question is how big will your layout be, what kind of curves can you handle on it? One advantage to converting 3 rail O engines is that they can generally operate in smaller spaces than 2 rail O. Most O 3rail can operate in O72 (36" radius) or less so would give you an advantage (the tradeoffs between 3r scale and 2 r is that 3r has movable pilots, blind drivers, and other tradeoffs to allow it to operate on tighter diameter/radius curves).

If you are space crunched, you can run 2 rail O, but you would be more limited with equipment. If you really want the layout to be scale, with track that is prototypical, engines that have a lot less tradeoffs, then going with 2 rail scale equipment suitable for the diameter/radius your layout allows may be better.

Plus of course there is generally more available in O 3 rail, and one source of joy may be buying engines whose command control boards have gone kaput but have a good motor, can probably get them cheap, or MTH PS1 engines. They use can motors, so should be a pretty good candidate.

With track removing the third rail might be an option, but then I don't know how easy it is to turn an atlas/Ross/MTH switch into 2 rail, the the way the turnout portion is set up for 3 rail. If you scratch build using code 148, it prob wouldn't mate well to the Atlas and you might want to use 2 rail O track (and again, maybe in a heavier code?). 

Obviously, these are just my thoughts, I have never tried what you are talking about. Like anything in this hobby it really is about what you are looking for, I tried to list the tradeoffs/limitations/issues with various approaches. About the only absolute thing is if scale fidelity is your big wish/need, the 2 rail O would be the way to go. If the compromises of converting 3r O into 2 rail don't bother you, then you have the choice, given the tradeoffs/compromises 2r or 3r O has.

As far as blasphemy goes, if someone get their nose bent out of joint at what you want to do, as the old saying goes, that is on them, not you. There is nothing sacred about any of this, and it isn't like the engines you want to convert are some sacred relic of an ancient civilization that will be lost to time, it is a toy train (says so right on the box!).

@MainLine Steam, while I whole-heartedly endorse this endeavor of yours, it would appear that yes, you've been banned, er, shunted to the 2R board. I'm also concerned that your tagline no longer fits. "Say what you will, but I refuse to outgrow Toy Trains!" It would appear that you have actually outgrown toy trains and are now firmly in the model train world. Please update your tagline before the 2R forum moderators are forced to take punitive action.

;-)

@GG1 4877 posted:

Yes, the Paradise and Pacific is an indoor 3 rail operating club.  The Railroad Park that the Paradise and Pacific is located at has outdoor layouts, but they are larger ride on trains at something like 12" and 15" scale.  The 15" scale train features live steam on the weekends.

That does bring up an interesting point though.  One thing I have been interested in and almost purchased an example of years ago was an O scale live steam locomotive.  I think it would be very entertaining to operate.

About 15 years ago I got to see a guy operating a G-Scale (1/29) AML 0-6-0, this video isn't from from then, but the same locomotive.  He had to grab it to adjust the throttle.  I mentioned that he should try to add an R/C set and hook-up a servo to do that.  He liked the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp_2p20tYs8

Went home and saw these were available for I think about $700 new.  (Had a domestic CFO at the time).  Well I'm kicking myself now!  BTW no sound system needed to make them sound like a steam Locomotive!

I posted a few months back that if I could afford it I would be operating G Live Steam.  If I lived in let's say AZ, wouldn't need a well ventilated large building for the layout, I probably would be.

Just a further temptation!

@bigkid posted:

Nothing blasphemous about anything you want to do, it is your gear. There are some questions I think you need to ask yourself that I think will influence how you go:

1)The issue of wheel flange is big, scale track is designed for scale countour wheels. If you scratch build turnouts using scale rail, you likely could run into problems (maybe use something bigger than 148? I don't know what they have now). I read something online where a guy scratch built 3 rail track, and I think he used a large track  code (250?)

2)Power wise, as long as the engines have a modern can motor, they should be fine with deadrail I assume.

3)A big question is how big will your layout be, what kind of curves can you handle on it? One advantage to converting 3 rail O engines is that they can generally operate in smaller spaces than 2 rail O. Most O 3rail can operate in O72 (36" radius) or less so would give you an advantage (the tradeoffs between 3r scale and 2 r is that 3r has movable pilots, blind drivers, and other tradeoffs to allow it to operate on tighter diameter/radius curves).

If you are space crunched, you can run 2 rail O, but you would be more limited with equipment. If you really want the layout to be scale, with track that is prototypical, engines that have a lot less tradeoffs, then going with 2 rail scale equipment suitable for the diameter/radius your layout allows may be better.

Plus of course there is generally more available in O 3 rail, and one source of joy may be buying engines whose command control boards have gone kaput but have a good motor, can probably get them cheap, or MTH PS1 engines. They use can motors, so should be a pretty good candidate.

With track removing the third rail might be an option, but then I don't know how easy it is to turn an atlas/Ross/MTH switch into 2 rail, the the way the turnout portion is set up for 3 rail. If you scratch build using code 148, it prob wouldn't mate well to the Atlas and you might want to use 2 rail O track (and again, maybe in a heavier code?).

Obviously, these are just my thoughts, I have never tried what you are talking about. Like anything in this hobby it really is about what you are looking for, I tried to list the tradeoffs/limitations/issues with various approaches. About the only absolute thing is if scale fidelity is your big wish/need, the 2 rail O would be the way to go. If the compromises of converting 3r O into 2 rail don't bother you, then you have the choice, given the tradeoffs/compromises 2r or 3r O has.

As far as blasphemy goes, if someone get their nose bent out of joint at what you want to do, as the old saying goes, that is on them, not you. There is nothing sacred about any of this, and it isn't like the engines you want to convert are some sacred relic of an ancient civilization that will be lost to time, it is a toy train (says so right on the box!).

Thanks, more to ponder!

Yes I am space constrained ,so that is part of the appeal of 3R locos vs 2R.  Mainlines I am planning will be O-90 and O-99 (wait 40.5 radius and 45 radius) I have Scale 4-8-4's.  I also Have a PRR T-1 but O-99 may be a challenge to run that.