3rd Rail--Can We Expect Any New Items?

I would like a C&O K-2,K-3, or K3a Mikado. These were workhorse, general purpose engines whereas Allegheny's, Greenbriers, Kanawha's get all the glory from railfans (and manufacturers). Realistically I don't see these being produced as there probably isn't much demand and the high cost of brass steam production now days.

I would go for the Virginian EL-3 jackshafts, however even if this was a project announced tomorrow it would probably be about 3 years before it was produced. I'm getting turned off by the extremely long lead times for anything (not just 3rd Rail) so I'm wondering how enthusiastic I will be about any project years in the future.

Ken

@PSM posted:

I might be the only person interested in this, but I would love to see someone (3rd Rail, Lionel, Atlas, anyone) produce more late 1800s early 1900s locomotives.  I get that they're small and hard to fit electronics into, but I think with some creativity and effort, they could be done.

Great idea. If GGD wants to sell anything from the 1800s that is prototypical to the Baltimore and Ohio I will line up to buy it. Anything prototypical to the B&O from the 20th Century will grab my attention and usually get a reservation. My fondest hallucination is getting a P-7d with an authentic consist for the Cincinnatian. Please?

@PSM posted:

I might be the only person interested in this, but I would love to see someone (3rd Rail, Lionel, Atlas, anyone) produce more late 1800s early 1900s locomotives.  I get that they're small and hard to fit electronics into, but I think with some creativity and effort, they could be done.

I would go for these also. Any of the western railroads would interest me, especially California.

@Norman R posted:

My fondest hallucination is getting a P-7d with an authentic consist for the Cincinnatian. Please?

You're 8 or 9 years too late.  Sunset/3rd Rail did the streamlined P-7d and Cincinnatian cars in 2015.  Only 40 3-rail and 10 2-rail locomotives were supposed to be made.

@Bob posted:

You're 8 or 9 years too late.  Sunset/3rd Rail did the streamlined P-7d and Cincinnatian cars in 2015.  Only 40 3-rail and 10 2-rail locomotives were supposed to be made.

I assisted with this project on behalf of GGD and 3rd Rail in July of 2015, so yes 8 years late.  50 total P7-Ds were indeed made.  While finding one on the secondary market is not likely anytime soon, there were more car sets made.  The P-7E was made in larger numbers.

As for the future and new items, lots of great ideas here, but the reality of the O scale marketplace is a tough one.  Plastic diesels seem to do best only because there are enough road names to meet the MOQ for a sales price that is acceptable to the buyer.  Locomotives that only were ordered by a single or a very few roads probably won't get the orders to go forward.  Remember the E60?  I preordered 3 as did several other people I know, and we couldn't get the units to go forward on it. 

Plastic tooled passenger cars render detail the best, but that is a lot of cars that need to be sold to offer them at a cost that the market will bear.  Heavyweight cars are most economically done in plastic.  Brass is getting to the unobtanium price for cars these days so even a single car let alone a full train is extremely expensive. 

We probably won't see new steam locomotives very often.  As a transition modeler myself, I would love to see several steam locomotives made, but we suffer as a hobby community on the inability to agree on a steam locomotive that could sell in the kinds of numbers, even in brass, that is required to make the project viable.  The NYC H10s may very well be the last steam we will see for the time being.

However, I don't want to be overly negative.  There are some great projects in development and some interesting ones coming down the road.  I am personally excited that Superliners are moving forward along with Genesis and Charger locomotives.  The Eagle is in production as is the SD40-2 which has been a long time coming, but I think it has been worth the wait.  FA's while a 2024 project aren't that far off.  Reruns are only being done now to fill gaps between the new offerings and not being done as a replacement for newly tooled trains unlike other manufacturers.  The future of scale O is exciting and all I can conclude with is keep your ideas coming! 

How about another run of the N&W 4-8-0 Class M's or some PRR P5a boxcabs?

It still baffles me that no one has done a chop nose GP9 in O scale. This would seem like a no brainer given how many roads had or still have them.

@EricTrainMan posted:

It still baffles me that no one has done a chop nose GP9 in O scale. This would seem like a no brainer given how many roads had or still have them.

The problem with that is, EMD delivered VERY FEW "low nose" GP9 model locomotives, and I believe only the Southern Pacific RR received them. All other GP9 units with the so-called "chop nose" where all modified, i.e. "chopped" by the individual railroads, and each RR tended to "chop" the short nose differently. So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,how would 3rd Rail model such varied models?

@GG1 4877 posted:

I assisted with this project on behalf of GGD and 3rd Rail in July of 2015, so yes 8 years late.  50 total P7-Ds were indeed made.  While finding one on the secondary market is not likely anytime soon, there were more car sets made.  The P-7E was made in larger numbers.

As for the future and new items, lots of great ideas here, but the reality of the O scale marketplace is a tough one.  Plastic diesels seem to do best only because there are enough road names to meet the MOQ for a sales price that is acceptable to the buyer.  Locomotives that only were ordered by a single or a very few roads probably won't get the orders to go forward.  Remember the E60?  I preordered 3 as did several other people I know, and we couldn't get the units to go forward on it.

Plastic tooled passenger cars render detail the best, but that is a lot of cars that need to be sold to offer them at a cost that the market will bear.  Heavyweight cars are most economically done in plastic.  Brass is getting to the unobtanium price for cars these days so even a single car let alone a full train is extremely expensive.

We probably won't see new steam locomotives very often.  As a transition modeler myself, I would love to see several steam locomotives made, but we suffer as a hobby community on the inability to agree on a steam locomotive that could sell in the kinds of numbers, even in brass, that is required to make the project viable.  The NYC H10s may very well be the last steam we will see for the time being.

However, I don't want to be overly negative.  There are some great projects in development and some interesting ones coming down the road.  I am personally excited that Superliners are moving forward along with Genesis and Charger locomotives.  The Eagle is in production as is the SD40-2 which has been a long time coming, but I think it has been worth the wait.  FA's while a 2024 project aren't that far off.  Reruns are only being done now to fill gaps between the new offerings and not being done as a replacement for newly tooled trains unlike other manufacturers.  The future of scale O is exciting and all I can conclude with is keep your ideas coming!

Excellent post Jonathan !!! 👍👍👍  
Thank you. 🙂

@Hot Water posted:

The problem with that is, EMD delivered VERY FEW "low nose" GP9 model locomotives, and I believe only the Southern Pacific RR received them. All other GP9 units with the so-called "chop nose" were all modified, i.e. "chopped" by the individual railroads, and each RR tended to "chop" the short nose differently. So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,how would 3rd Rail model such varied models?

Interesting, I didn’t know this. For many including myself, just having a modified chop nose I believe is close enough. I’m not worried about it being 100%, little is in O scale.

@Bob posted:

You're 8 or 9 years too late.  Sunset/3rd Rail did the streamlined P-7d and Cincinnatian cars in 2015.  Only 40 3-rail and 10 2-rail locomotives were supposed to be made.

I am one of the fortunate ones who bit the bullet and purchased the entire Cincinnatian set-P7D engine,  five car passenger consist and the two additional cars.   I haven't seen one for sale on the secondary market since.

Is there a reason that no one does Steam in plastic? Would it make the numbers work out better?

@GG1 4877 posted:

However, I don't want to be overly negative.  There are some great projects in development and some interesting ones coming down the road.  I am personally excited that Superliners are moving forward along with Genesis and Charger locomotives. 

I'm very excited to see the Genesis moving forward.  I'm starting to understand the desire to model the railroad(s) you were around as a kid.  I rode MetroNorth into NYC many times as a kid, and can't wait to have a model.

I think a GE ES44 series diesel would be a good model for future production instead of the previously listed GE-9 , for the last 20 years this has been the main diesel for the class 1 roads. JMO

@rplst8 posted:

Is there a reason that no one does Steam in plastic? Would it make the numbers work out better?

I think that’s kinda like taboo,…..if ain’t die cast or brass, 90% of this gang would snub their noses at it, and more than likely go to pieces….😉

Pat

“Reruns are only being done now to fill gaps between the new offerings and not being done as a replacement for newly tooled trains unlike other manufacturers.”  Jonathan

New models are Always Great !!! but reruns are Really Appreciated by many of us. I for one can’t buy Every Road that I would like in one run. The reruns gives us the opportunity to continue to build our “fleets” in All our favorite roads !!! 😜😉  Cheers  

@PSM posted:

I might be the only person interested in this, but I would love to see someone (3rd Rail, Lionel, Atlas, anyone) produce more late 1800s early 1900s locomotives.  I get that they're small and hard to fit electronics into, but I think with some creativity and effort, they could be done.

Nope, you're not alone.  Have wanted engines from that era and also a PRR Yellow Kid passenger train.

@PSM posted:

I might be the only person interested in this, but I would love to see someone (3rd Rail, Lionel, Atlas, anyone) produce more late 1800s early 1900s locomotives.  I get that they're small and hard to fit electronics into, but I think with some creativity and effort, they could be done.

I’d be interested in any O gauge model of the famous Sierra no. 3, which could be made in variations of its many movie and TV roles. It wouldn’t have to involve licensing if the models avoided using any fictitious railroad names that Sierra no. 3 has worn.

@TrainBub posted:

“Reruns are only being done now to fill gaps between the new offerings and not being done as a replacement for newly tooled trains unlike other manufacturers.”  Jonathan

New models are Always Great !!! but reruns are Really Appreciated by many of us. I for one can’t buy Every Road that I would like in one run. The reruns gives us the opportunity to continue to build our “fleets” in All our favorite roads !!! 😜😉  Cheers  

Yes, this is right on target. There are people who are relatively new to the hobby and missed the opportunity to acquire prototypical trains they would really like to have. Maybe there are some others whose economic conditions have improved, and they can now afford what they could not back when it was originally offered. This thread makes good points about the economics of manufacturing as the key driver. Determining a minimum order quantity that will keep a company healthy can take quite a bit of knowledge, experience and judgment.

My like to see list includes 5 items, the Southern Ms4 mikado, the Southern Ks consolidation, a USRA light pacific, a Southern class Su 36 foot boxcar and a ventilated boxcar (not particular about the road on the ventilated boxcar).  The first two I am not holding my breath for.  The last three have marketing potential.

Also if someone wanted to redo N&W’s Cf caboose I would buy one.

@Bill N posted:

...... and a ventilated boxcar (not particular about the road on the ventilated boxcar).

Yoder did a ventilated boxcar that is very nice and those command serious prices.  A lot of RR's had ventilated boxcars and there was a good bit of ventilation in appearance.

@rplst8 posted:

Is there a reason that no one does Steam in plastic? Would it make the numbers work out better?

If "doing" steam in plastic means making a mold, that's only economical if you're going for volume--mass production.  It's true that molds for plastic are less expensive than dies for metal, but there's still a huge up-front cost.  Unless the mold were cleverly made to permit exchanging domes, cabs, etc., to create railroad specific variations, I doubt we would ever see that volume.  And creating provisions for that kind of customization only adds to the up-front expense.

I'm not saying that I don't like your idea.  Only that the economics of it are unlikely, unless 3D printing, etc., makes it a lot cheaper to create the molds.

The point of brass models is that they are mostly handmade and NOT mass-produced.  So doing "unique" locos like the experimental Baldwin 60000 4-10-2 becomes feasible (for a price.)  Lionel's Vision hybrids are an attempt to leverage the economics by creating unique brass boilers to fit on the die-cast running gear they already have tooling for.  There are some compromises inherent to that strategy, and they're still not cheap.

I like the fact that 3rd Rail's diesels use a large high-quality motor with a real drive, and offer the possibility of fixed pilots.  Even if I never buy another complete model, I hope they make the drive parts available to upgrade models that were mass-produced with two vertical motors in the past.  After 40 years in the hobby, I'm not looking for "more" so much as for something better!

@Bill N posted:

My like to see list includes 5 items, the Southern Ms4 mikado, the Southern Ks consolidation, a USRA light pacific, a Southern class Su 36 foot boxcar and a ventilated boxcar (not particular about the road on the ventilated boxcar).  The first two I am not holding my breath for.  The last three have marketing potential.

Also if someone wanted to redo N&W’s Cf caboose I would buy one.

Would love some Ventilated boxcars.

@DMASSO posted:

Mel. Atlas did the NH Alco HH660 in HO. Maybe they can make one in O.

Don't hold your breath.

Atlas doesn't seem to be on the forefront nearly like it was a decade or so ago especially in O scale.

I really like Atlas HO engines (I have multiples of their GP7's, S-2's, RS-1's, and HH660's), but they come along far and few between.

Andre

I'm just waiting for the GP30 to be announced so I can put my pre-orders in.

What I REALLY want is a pair of Erie K5 Pacifics with matching Stillwell coaches, but I suppose that's just a dream at this point.

I am a simple man: I would like to see a re-run of the Golden Gate Depot 54ft Reefers, please see below:
https://ogrforum.com/...c/176694689197168822

Bryce

@jonnyspeed posted:

I'm just waiting for the GP30 to be announced so I can put my pre-orders in.

What I REALLY want is a pair of Erie K5 Pacifics with matching Stillwell coaches, but I suppose that's just a dream at this point.

Erie K5 Pacifics would be fantastic!

Wow Jonathan!  I'm with you on the K5s and Stillwell coaches.  My guess is that they would be  a Tri-State sell-out.  I know that both would require new tooling so we may have to just keep dreaming.  I'll settle for set of  DL&W Booton cars.   

Earl

I'd like to see Superliner II cars. It's tough to make a prototypical phase 6 train without them. I don't know if there would be enough interest since the Superliner I's are being produced.

I know they would need probably need to be brass, but I'd really like to see chapel cars made. The interiors on the real cars were incredible, especially the Russian Orthodox ones.

Superliner II cars will be done one day.  The best prototypical combination for a Superliner is Superliner I's and II's after all.   A lot of the tooling is similar if not the same.  I'm in for both for my Phase VI train.

However personally, I grew up mostly riding during the Phase III years and specifically on the Superliners between 1987 and 1992.  Looking forward to finally getting an accurate SW Chief!

Since we are dreaming, I say this in every 3rd Rail thread.  I'd like to see a truly accurate Blue Comet.  Never been done in O scale.  Many have tried and come up short.  I'd also like to see the same locomotives and cars in their 1950 paint schemes when they were doing commuter service.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Superliner II cars will be done one day.  The best prototypical combination for a Superliner is Superliner I's and II's after all.   A lot of the tooling is similar if not the same.  I'm in for both for my Phase VI train.

However personally, I grew up mostly riding during the Phase III years and specifically on the Superliners between 1987 and 1992.  Looking forward to finally getting an accurate SW Chief!

Since we are dreaming, I say this in every 3rd Rail thread.  I'd like to see a truly accurate Blue Comet.  Never been done in O scale.  Many have tried and come up short.  I'd also like to see the same locomotives and cars in their 1950 paint schemes when they were doing commuter service.

I'm looking to make a Phase VI Coast Starlight, so I'll need the transition and business cars. The good news is that mixing Superliner I's and II's will help the budget.

I like the Phase III paint scheme a lot, just out of curiosity, what are you using for the baggage car?

@seank941 posted:

I'm looking to make a Phase VI Coast Starlight, so I'll need the transition and business cars. The good news is that mixing Superliner I's and II's will help the budget.

I like the Phase III paint scheme a lot, just out of curiosity, what are you using for the baggage car?

There has been a lot of interest in the Coast Starlight.  There is a good chance the Pacific Parlour Car will run with a future run of El Capitan cars.

I purchased the Lionel 21" phase III Heritage set which has an 18" baggage car for my future SW Chief.  The MTH one would have worked as would have a GGD Santa Fe Budd baggage.  However, my ATSF baggage cars go with my various ATSF trains, so I'd be hesitant to repaint one.  I also have three MTH Materials Handling Cars which typically ran as head end during that era on most trains. 

I also am putting together the Broadway Limited I rode frequently in the late 80's / early 90' and the Lionel set works very well.  As a result, I'm only missing a diner and a baggage dorm car for that train.  I wasn't interested in the Station Sounds diner.  Just too expensive for features I won't use.  I'll use GGD Amfleets for the lounge and extra coaches for now but have older aluminum cars that will be refurbished so I can make a complete Heritage fleet train with the missing cars.  Looking forward to the arrival of the Slumbercoach later this year.

An alco RS3 done right seems a no brainer — practically every road had them and you could use the exact same car body on three axle trucks for an rsd 4/5

Would love to see a Texas & New Orleans Sunbeam. The engine and matching cars.

@20centuryhudson posted:

An alco RS3 done right seems a no brainer — practically every road had them and you could use the exact same car body on three axle trucks for an rsd 4/5

The RS3 while high on my list of locomotives I am interested in is not as easy as it looks on paper.  As with all locomotives there were periodic specification changes throughout the years of production in addition to road specific details and several variants.

As I recall there were three major specification changes that affect the outward appearance of the RS3, not including the several variants.  Not that they couldn't be done with modern tooling, just makes it a more interesting project to research, design, and execute. 

Another one that I would like to personally see is a H24-66 Train Master.  I would go for several CNJ ones and a PRR one in 2 rail.  The brass ones Sunset did a number of years ago are next to impossible to find and any newly tooled one would be far superior. 

No more than the GP7/9 I should think

@GG1 4877 posted:

The RS3 while high on my list of locomotives I am interested in is not as easy as it looks on paper.  As with all locomotives there were periodic specification changes throughout the years of production in addition to road specific details and several variants.

As I recall there were three major specification changes that affect the outward appearance of the RS3, not including the several variants.  Not that they couldn't be done with modern tooling, just makes it a more interesting project to research, design, and execute.

Building correct RS-3's could be a nightmare for 3rd Rail.  For example, PRR had 127 of them on their roster, with no less than 20 variations.  Trainphone, cab signals, dynamic brakes, headlight type, number board placement and steam heat boiler are some of the features that were mixed and matched on these units, and all led to visible exterior detail differences.

Plaintive cry from the wilderness:   Rock Island 4-8-4 !   

@Bob posted:

Building correct RS-3's could be a nightmare for 3rd Rail.  For example, PRR had 127 of them on their roster, with no less than 20 variations.  Trainphone, cab signals, dynamic brakes, headlight type, number board placement and steam heat boiler are some of the features that were mixed and matched on these units, and all led to visible exterior detail differences.

The obvious solution would be to pick one locomotive, perhaps the first one, the last one to be retired, or one that was the most photographed around a large city, and build a model of just that one locomotive. If that isn't good enough for too-picky fans, they don't have to buy it and probably don't deserve to have anything. I doubt that any of my O gauge locomotive models from Sunset, MTH Premier, Lionel, Atlas O or Weaver is precisely accurate - but some are quite close and that's good enough for me. Remember, in building any locomotive model, deviations from prototype always must be made to engineer the model for operation. They never are perfectly accurate - just close enough for most people.

MELGAR