3rd Rail EA Offering - 2 more possible options with Alton and GM&O

Trainbub, for sure these are two very rare schemes and I would like to reserve one, but without cars to pull and the fact that I would go for the Santa Fe version first, I think this might be a hard sell. C&A/GM&O are very attractive schemes that don't seem to get the attention it should (my opinion), but I hope this works out for you if you are ordering one.

Charlie

I emailed Scott. I’m in for one! I would prefer GM&O but would go for either.

@Charlie posted:

Trainbub, for sure these are two very rare schemes and I would like to reserve one, but without cars to pull and the fact that I would go for the Santa Fe version first, I think this might be a hard sell. C&A/GM&O are very attractive schemes that don't seem to get the attention it should (my opinion), but I hope this works out for you if you are ordering one.

Charlie

What I DO Know is that if you don’t try, you are guaranteed to have nothing to show.  This does Seem like a long shot but who knows what number of reservations are needed to get it to fly (and it’s “only” a paint change). I get the “no cars to pull” but maybe Scott could offer some in the next plastic heavyweight Coach offering (email Scott to ask for a New Run). And I see Lionel offering some GM&O 18” heavyweights (Weaver cars?). Even still, any EA, E1 is a historically important engine to have in a train collection - even if no cars to pull. (I wanted a RI TA but not the set. A historical engine one off that I had to pass on ☹️). The EAs - B&O and Alton-GM&O both came into St. Louis where I now live. I will end up with either or both.
Cheers

The Abraham Lincoln looks like a pretty cool train to model.  Streamlined cars with rivets.  Who made the cars? ACF, PS, or someone else?

The challenge is that these would be likely have to be brass as extruding aluminum doesn't get the rivets and plastic involves a large investment in tooling and the numbers would have to large. 

Brass is about $400 - $500 a car at best these days.  Would there be interest at that cost?

The other alternative is to do what Trainbub mentions which would be to do a re-run of GGD plastic heavyweights in Alton and GM&O.  The tooling is there for an almost accurate set in the coach, head end, and sleeper, diner, observation sets.

FWIW, the GM&O scheme/road name is typically a good seller (no - not at ATSF/NYC/PRR level), based on what I have seen produced. Even some steam has shown up. The Alton is less-well known (the later GM&O scheme is, of course, the Alton scheme "upgraded"). I am wrestling over ordering the GM&O PA AA set from the latest Lionel catalogue.

The GM&O/Alton EA would be a striking model; the GM&O EA was later upgraded to E8 specs and appearance. Internally I get it, but I would have left the looks mostly alone.

@D500 posted:

The GM&O/Alton EA would be a striking model; the GM&O EA was later upgraded to E8 specs and appearance. Internally I get it, but I would have left the looks mostly alone.

ATSF did the same thing with their E1s in 1952.  They kept their Winton prime movers though so were only rated at 2000 hp and called E8ms.  Of course externally it just looked like another E8. 

3rd Rail has done several locomotives in GM&O.  It is a decent seller and an attractive paint scheme.  I'm not sure where the EA / E1 project falls on the design and production schedule other than to say when it gets enough reservations.  I'd like an E1 set, but don't have the cars for it either.  Timing is everything on pre-ordering that A-B set.  Kind of like my CBQ E5 which is seeking a train that doesn't say California Zephyr on it.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I'm not sure where the EA / E1 project falls on the design and production schedule other than to say when it gets enough reservations. 

Jonathan,

When it gets enough reservations?  Here is what Scott said verbatim on 12/19/20 in the SD40-2 thread:

      "I'm not ready to give up just yet. In 2021 we'll make the Krauss Maffei, the EA /EB, E1A/B, F3

        rerun, then there's a gap. I suspect that is when I will do a short run of SD40-2 and later

        FA/FBs. It's foolish for me to throw away reservations."

From what Scott himself said a little over a month ago, I understood it to mean Sunset already has enough reservations to do the EA / EA1. 

@Former Member posted:

Jonathan,

When it gets enough reservations?  Here is what Scott said verbatim on 12/19/20 in the SD40-2 thread:

      "I'm not ready to give up just yet. In 2021 we'll make the Krauss Maffei, the EA /EB, E1A/B, F3

        rerun, then there's a gap. I suspect that is when I will do a short run of SD40-2 and later

        FA/FBs. It's foolish for me to throw away reservations."

From what Scott himself said a little over a month ago, I understood it to mean Sunset already has enough reservations to do the EA / EA1.

That's right.  He did say that!  We haven't discussed the EA/E1s yet.  Not a difficult project compared to some others though when it comes to road specific details.  I'm focusing on starting the SD40-2 now.  A lot more design work will go into that due to all the variations.

Oops....

@GG1 4877 posted:

3rd Rail has done several locomotives in GM&O.  It is a decent seller and an attractive paint scheme.  I'm not sure where the EA / E1 project falls on the design and production schedule other than to say when it gets enough reservations.  I'd like an E1 set, but don't have the cars for it either.  Timing is everything on pre-ordering that A-B set.  Kind of like my CBQ E5 which is seeking a train that doesn't say California Zephyr on it.

Hey Jonathan, hope everything is going well for you, its been awhile since we spoke.

As for the C&A/GM&O E's I hope enough people step up for this one as has said above, it is a great color scheme, but it just can't be me. As it is, I have a C&NW E6 and Illinois Central E6 (which you did a fabulous job on by the way) with no cars and the last thing I need is another engine with nothing to pull.

If I step to the plate on the E1 it will have to be the Santa Fe, at least I have a reasonable train that can be used.

Hopefully your situation with the CB&Q E5 will get resolved while you can still enjoy the hobby and not at brass price of 4~$500 per car.

BTW, I just saw pictures of the B&O EA (#51 I think) that was recently restored at the B&O museum. The team at the museum  did a really nice job with that paint scheme.

Charlie

@GG1 4877 posted:

The Abraham Lincoln looks like a pretty cool train to model.  Streamlined cars with rivets.  Who made the cars? ACF, PS, or someone else?

The challenge is that these would be likely have to be brass as extruding aluminum doesn't get the rivets and plastic involves a large investment in tooling and the numbers would have to large.

Brass is about $400 - $500 a car at best these days.  Would there be interest at that cost?

The other alternative is to do what Trainbub mentions which would be to do a re-run of GGD plastic heavyweights in Alton and GM&O.  The tooling is there for an almost accurate set in the coach, head end, and sleeper, diner, observation sets.

I’d be interested in some brass but that is so expensive. Perhaps a mix select cars in diff “delivery” so to say.
Here’s the “Abe Lincoln” observation car in Kirkwood (St. Louis County) Missouri “Museum of Transportation” from a few years ago  How cool it would be to see this in” O”. 🤗  I could even live without the rivets. 😜😜😜

Would love to add one of these to the collection!

Sound like EA E1 could be a Q3 or 4 product - but nothing ever happens on time does it ? (especially now with container ships in Long Qs on the west coast).
There’s some time to see if this variant can take off.
But ........ where are some comments from previous  3rd Rail GM&O buyers ??? I expected to see some of them chime in.

@Charlie posted:

Hey Jonathan, hope everything is going well for you, its been awhile since we spoke.

As for the C&A/GM&O E's I hope enough people step up for this one as has said above, it is a great color scheme, but it just can't be me. As it is, I have a C&NW E6 and Illinois Central E6 (which you did a fabulous job on by the way) with no cars and the last thing I need is another engine with nothing to pull.

If I step to the plate on the E1 it will have to be the Santa Fe, at least I have a reasonable train that can be used.

Hopefully your situation with the CB&Q E5 will get resolved while you can still enjoy the hobby and not at brass price of 4~$500 per car.

BTW, I just saw pictures of the B&O EA (#51 I think) that was recently restored at the B&O museum. The team at the museum  did a really nice job with that paint scheme.

Charlie

Yah - I bought an IC E6 too. Absolutely beautiful. I look for an E5,6 rerun as I couldn’t buy all that I wanted at once !!! 😳

@GG1 4877 posted:

ATSF did the same thing with their E1s in 1952.  They kept their Winton prime movers though so were only rated at 2000 hp and called E8ms.  Of course externally it just looked like another E8.

3rd Rail has done several locomotives in GM&O.  It is a decent seller and an attractive paint scheme.  I'm not sure where the EA / E1 project falls on the design and production schedule other than to say when it gets enough reservations.  I'd like an E1 set, but don't have the cars for it either.  Timing is everything on pre-ordering that A-B set.  Kind of like my CBQ E5 which is seeking a train that doesn't say California Zephyr on it.

Jonathan Was the paint job for the 3rd Rail GM&O E7 run 2 your work ?  I’ve wondered where it historically fits with the different paint jobs.
(See below for Ref.)

@GG1 4877 posted:

ATSF did the same thing with their E1s in 1952.  They kept their Winton prime movers though so were only rated at 2000 hp and called E8ms.  Of course externally it just looked like another E8.

(Jonathan, it's not a "biggie," but it was the other way around.)  

This has no bearing on the EA/EB and E1A/E1B models being discussed here, but, for clarity, . . .

The Santa Fe E8m units got new prime movers (EMD 567C 12-cylinder) but retained their original General Electric main generators and traction motors.  Electrical capacity was the reason the units were rated at 2000 horsepower instead of 2250.  Still, it was an upgrade from 1800 horsepower.  The carbodies were all-new E8 bodies.  In the case of Santa Fe, the trucks also retained the original Timken roller bearings instead of replacing them with EMD's standard Hyatts.  Externally, the roller bearings were the only giveaway that these were not ordinary E8's.  Well, for purists, the new EMD oval builder plates had the original serial numbers and build dates (1937-38) stamped into them, not the rebuild dates.

The GM&O and the B&O also bought E8m units which contained EMD 567C prime movers, but I am not sure if those units retained the exact same EA/EB components as were recycled into the Santa Fe units.

@GG1 4877 posted:

The Abraham Lincoln looks like a pretty cool train to model.  Streamlined cars with rivets.  Who made the cars? ACF, PS, or someone else?

The challenge is that these would be likely have to be brass as extruding aluminum doesn't get the rivets and plastic involves a large investment in tooling and the numbers would have to large.

Brass is about $400 - $500 a car at best these days.  Would there be interest at that cost?

The other alternative is to do what Trainbub mentions which would be to do a re-run of GGD plastic heavyweights in Alton and GM&O.  The tooling is there for an almost accurate set in the coach, head end, and sleeper, diner, observation sets.

Would these be painted in the original dark maroon of the Alton or the lighter maroon the post war GM&O eventually used? That will require two sets of passenger equipment.

@Number 90 posted:

(Actually, Jonathan, it was the other way around.)  

This has no bearing on the EA/EB and E1A/E1B models being discussed here, but, for clarity, . . .

The Santa Fe E8m units got new prime movers (EMD 567C 12-cylinder) but retained their original General Electric main generators and traction motors.  Electrical capacity was the reason the units were rated at 2000 horsepower instead of 2250.  Still, it was an upgrade from 1800 horsepower.  The carbodies were all-new E8 bodies.  In the case of Santa Fe, the trucks also retained the original Timken roller bearings instead of replacing them with EMD's standard Hyatts.  Externally, the roller bearings were the only giveaway that these were not ordinary E8's.  Well, for purists, the new EMD oval builder plates had the original serial numbers and build dates (1937-38) stamped into them, not the rebuild dates.

The GM&O and the B&O also bought E8m units which contained EMD 567C prime movers, but I am not sure if those units retained the exact same EA/EB components as were recycled into the Santa Fe units.

Tom,

Thanks for the correction!  That's what I get from going by memory.  I remember clearly they were de-rated, but indeed had that backwards!

As for the GM&O and B&O units, this is pure conjecture, but they may have had the electrical systems upgraded as many of those units went into the Amtrak pool for at least a few years while the ATSF never made it to Amtrak.

@TrainBub posted:

Jonathan Was the paint job for the 3rd Rail GM&O E7 run 2 your work ?  I’ve wondered where it historically fits with the different paint jobs.
(See below for Ref.)

Yes, I did the graphics for these.  That was 10 years ago.  Hard to believe, but it was the 2nd project I consulted with Scott on.  A lot of learning came out of that project!

The paint scheme done on the E7 is the as-delivered scheme from around 1948 and lasted until 1971 on many units.     

@Charlie posted:

Hey Jonathan, hope everything is going well for you, its been awhile since we spoke.

As for the C&A/GM&O E's I hope enough people step up for this one as has said above, it is a great color scheme, but it just can't be me. As it is, I have a C&NW E6 and Illinois Central E6 (which you did a fabulous job on by the way) with no cars and the last thing I need is another engine with nothing to pull.

If I step to the plate on the E1 it will have to be the Santa Fe, at least I have a reasonable train that can be used.

Hopefully your situation with the CB&Q E5 will get resolved while you can still enjoy the hobby and not at brass price of 4~$500 per car.

BTW, I just saw pictures of the B&O EA (#51 I think) that was recently restored at the B&O museum. The team at the museum  did a really nice job with that paint scheme.

Charlie

Charlie - it's been difficult!  I mostly see brass cars for this locomotive.  I'm not completely concerned about total accuracy, but a mixture of streamlined and heavyweights cars that are at least close in "Burlington" would be ideal for a short secondary train consist of about 6 cars.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Yes, I did the graphics for these.  That was 10 years ago.  Hard to believe, but it was the 2nd project I consulted with Scott on.  A lot of learning came out of that project!

The paint scheme done on the E7 is the as-delivered scheme from around 1948 and lasted until 1971 on many units.     

Jonathan - Thank you for for “dating” this models paint job. I only have one GM&O reference book and there are no (color) photo that show these colors. I don’t see any with my net searches either. Weird. There’s a new history of GM&O book out I intend to pick up - perhaps I’ll see better color varieties there. I guessed to myself that it was an as delivered scheme - usually par for 3rd Rail. I admired the “deep dive” work you accomplish - accuracy is great !!!

@BobbyD posted:

Would these be painted in the original dark maroon of the Alton or the lighter maroon the post war GM&O eventually used? That will require two sets of passenger equipment.

Let’s get the EA on the schedule first !!!  If that flies, let’s try for some cars. I guess what year of the consist becomes critical. Without a lot of info right now, I Like the colors I show in my earlier posted observation car pictures. (Raw photos - no editing).

Some good dialog here !!!  
But .....a reminder....  

Email Scott that  you’d reserve this add-on EA if he offers it up !!!!!  🤞🤞🤞🤞

👍👍👍👍

@TrainBub posted:

Let’s get the EA on the schedule first !!!  If that flies, let’s try for some cars. I guess what year of the consist becomes critical. Without a lot of info right now, I Like the colors I show in my earlier posted observation car pictures. (Raw photos - no editing).

I hope Scott makes it for those that want one. We're out of the "engine but no caboose or passenger consist to go with it" group.

@BobbyD posted:

I hope Scott makes it for those that want one. We're out of the "engine but no caboose or passenger consist to go with it" group.

I get that and can appreciate it !!! I collect mainly not often done MP, Frisco, and MKT (and roads that came into St. Louis [many !] - and others too ) so when an opportunity comes along for an engine I probably buy it. (3rd Rail has been Good for me the last few years with MP and TP).  It’s just par ! With luck, maybe by 2022 I’ll have a beautiful MP EAGLE. I started the campaign for it here in the forums. Sometimes you have to work for it. May fly or not. Maybe one just has to build a second tier train with express cars and Pullman baggage mail with a coach or two. Buy some Pullman green baggage cars. U can use them in any consist !!!   I guess I’d rather have part of something I like /want than nothing at all.  We are all different and that’s fine. 🙂
Caboose are another story !!!! MP and Frisco almost non- existent or lousy/cheapo. 😖

1964 photo in public domain. Observation car originally built for the “Royal Blue” by ACF. Enjoy those rivets. 😬I

I was not aware that observation ran on the Royal Blue.  I wonder if the rest of the train is formal Royal Blue too?  If so, there is a market to paint it in both schemes for the B&O EA.

This is all speculation on my part.  I merely consult to Scott.  He's knows the business side and numbers of how many cars it would take to go.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I was not aware that observation ran on the Royal Blue.  I wonder if the rest of the train is formal Royal Blue too?  If so, there is a market to paint it in both schemes for the B&O EA.

This is all speculation on my part.  I merely consult to Scott.  He's knows the business side and numbers of how many cars it would take to go.

I just stumbled across this today. Kinda logical (?) with the B&O - Alton linkage. Luck with some good extra info one doesn’t usually find with an image. Right on down to statement “in public domain”

We all can’t be knowledgeable for ALL these roads. The histories can be quite complex. Here’s an image from “Big John’s” website of the Golden GateCincinnatian observation car. Pretty similar.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I was not aware that observation ran on the Royal Blue.  I wonder if the rest of the train is formal Royal Blue too? 

If you find source information on this, I'd be interested to know, also.

KD

@dkdkrd posted:

If you find source information on this, I'd be interested to know, also.

KD

There’s some simple to find Wikipedia info for this. (Alton Abraham Lincoln consist)   There REALLY is some good linkage for Abraham Lincoln and Royal Blue consists !!!  ACF built one for each.  I’m glossing thru but could be possibility for dual offering - same consist different paint. Good info .........

@TrainBub posted:

There’s some simple to find Wikipedia info for this. (Alton Abraham Lincoln consist)   There REALLY is some good linkage for Abraham Lincoln and Royal Blue consists !!!  ACF built one for each.  I’m glossing thru but could be possibility for dual offering - same consist different paint. Good info .........

I feel guilty for asking this as I have no plans to reserve an E6 based on the C&A or GM&O, but you have sparked my interest in the consist that came from the B&O that was pulled by the EA.

The information I found was that the Royal Blue came to the Alton as a set minus some remodeling on one of the cars. (in addition to paint).

Question, what was the makeup of the Royal Blue consist and are there any pictures to share? I have zero B&O books and I'm not sure what I am looking at with the few images on line.

Thanks.

Charlie

@Charlie posted:

I feel guilty for asking this as I have no plans to reserve an E6 based on the C&A or GM&O, but you have sparked my interest in the consist that came from the B&O that was pulled by the EA.

The information I found was that the Royal Blue came to the Alton as a set minus some remodeling on one of the cars. (in addition to paint).

Question, what was the makeup of the Royal Blue consist and are there any pictures to share? I have zero B&O books and I'm not sure what I am looking at with the few images on line.

Thanks.

Charlie

I’m new to drilling down with B&O, Alton, and GM&O so I’m sure I may only be a Little more knowledgeable than you. (I am St. Louis- centric with all trains into Union Station [Many roads !] but focus on MP and Frisco.). I have only one GM&O book for reference (GM&O in Color V1) and it does go into the Alton etc a bit but leaves me with questions - like you. These books can be big on power (this one skewed to later two tone red) and short on rolling stock. Here - not a lot of consist information - much less pictures. And IMO, the writing is not always concise - and without an accompanying picture, sometimes quite confusing. (I’d be a tough editor).  I await delivery of a TRRA HS book on the National Limited - B&O train into St. Louis. I hope it adds to my knowledge base. While laying over in St. Louis, the B&O used the EA to pull, I believe, the Abraham Lincoln from SL. To Chicago and back. So there May (?) be some more info to gain.
I’ll update info here as I “grow” the knowledge base.
Cheers !!! 🙂

So not to highjack the GM&O conversation. Because I might get one. But I was thinking about my Santa Fe Order as it stands now. I ordered the as delivered more orangey color as Scott states. Does anybody know when did Santa Fe change to the color on the E6's or F3's (I assume).

Thanks

@Blue Streak posted:

So not to highjack the GM&O conversation. Because I might get one. But I was thinking about my Santa Fe Order as it stands now. I ordered the as delivered more orangey color as Scott states. Does anybody know when did Santa Fe change to the color on the E6's or F3's (I assume).

Thanks

I’ve been trying to figure out the same thing. From what I can tell is was done after the war. So if you are modeling a prewar superchief you should be good with the orangy red scheme.

Also email scot ASAP if you want a GM&O EA! We need to meet the magic number on em.

@BigJohn&theWork posted:

I’ve been trying to figure out the same thing. From what I can tell is was done after the war. So if you are modeling a prewar superchief you should be good with the orangy red scheme.

Also email scot ASAP if you want a GM&O EA! We need to meet the magic number on em.

Scott started another Three Rail Scale thread with announcement the design work is beginning on the SF E1s and B&O EAs. No mention of GM&O or Alton. Time grows short. If you WANT one of these EMAIL SCOTT.  Time to Step Up. He needs some threshold “mystery” number to kick it into the run. This will be an only chance to ever see these in O scale - IMO.