400e prewar vs. Classics

I do not have a 400E of any production era but I do have several Lionel Classic and MTH Tinplate Traditions engines as well as a few old Lionel Pre-war engines in both Standard and O Gauges.  The easiest way to determine who produced the engine would be to simply check the roller pick up assembly on your engine.  If it is a Lionel Classic the brass face plate affixed to the pick up assembly should state, "Lionel Trains, Inc., Made in Korea".  If it is a Lionel pre-war 400E the brass plate should state, "The Lionel Corporation, New York".  If its a later MTH Tinplate Traditions engine it will state MTH.  Hope this helps.

more brass, it's actually a good question, and one that is an on-going concern.  Sometimes it's not easy to tell.

OKHIKER's suggestion is a good place to start, but be aware that not all MTH reproductions are labelled MTH.  Also, an original locomotive could have a replacement motor, the pick up assembly labeling would only reflect the motor.  Also Lionel Classics are now made in China, and the pick up label is often a replication of the vintage brass plate.  It can be pretty confusing.

If your loco has MEW replacement wheels, this would point to vintage manufacture; it is unlikely that a recent reproduction would have a reason to replace the wheels.  But there are a lot of other unknowns.

A look at the general conditiion on the finish should be an indication whether you are looking at an engine that is 10-20 years old (reproduction) or 90-100 years old (original). But you may have an original that was "restored" (repainted), which would look newer unless you knew what to look for.

Everybody on the forum loves pictures, so if you have or can get any, please post them.  That way we can all get excited about it and come up with various theories and opinions as to the manufacture of your 400.  

There's a tremendous amount of collective knowledge and expertise on the forum, you will probably have your question answered to your satisfaction is you show some photos, and try to follow up answering requests for more information.  Lionel 400's are not my primary area of knowledge, but there will be someone here who will nail it down for you.

The Lionel Classics 400E was produced only in grey, as far as I know. There might have been a Blue Comet version, not sure of that, but I am quite sure it was not done in black. So, if you have a black one, it probably isn't Lionel Classics. You might also take a look at the wiring. If it's old, or looks like it's been replaced by an amateur, that's another sign that it's an original that's had some work done. 

Note that, in addition to the Lionel Classics (which were actually made by MTH under contract to Lionel) some very early MTH repros had Lionel markings. In any case, it's quite easy to swap out the ID plates - I've done it. 

I agree with Hojack that the MEW point to an original that has had some work done on it. The original Lionel Classics wheels have held up quite well, at least so far. 

Welcome to the forum. Judging by your opening sentence the cherry's not there any longer. I agree that this bunch can be a little ruthless at times. You can almost bank on hojack's judgement call. I've heard horror stories relating to the early diecast. It sounds like most of your problems have been corrected.

I wish I could be of more assistance. My collection consists of nothing but vintage Lionel Std & O-gauge. Some of the folks on this Tinplate Forum are quite knowledgeable when it comes to the modern tinplate. Do not be afraid to ask for help. Once again, "Welcome to the Tinplate Forum".

It's hard to tell which animal you own without a partial dis-assembly.  By doing so you find out everything you're wanting to know. Most of the most important numbers and tell-tail parts are not easy to see. Sometimes one will find a jig-saw puzzle containing a mixed lot of parts. Most original pieces can be fitted with newer parts from other manufactures. Sometimes this bad practice occurs when someone performs a rescue on a basket case. Keep us posted as to what you find out.

   The numbers you mentioned that are cast into the frame are present on original frames. Most likely die numbers, I have never seen a reproduction frame with those numbers. My guess without pics is that it is an original loco.

"Lionel Classics" produced TWO 400E's:

1-400E Blue Comet -  nickel trim w/red drivers and NO whistle

2-400E Dark Gray -  nickel trim w/black drivers & whistle tender *

* has NON-mechanical electronic relay with diecast whistle chamber

"Lionel Classics" did NOT produce a black 400E.

Curiously, the whistle in the tender of the gray 2-400E was NEVER listed in the catalog, or even on the product description on the engine box! 

It was a total surprise when I unpacked the tender and saw the pickup rollers! 

A NICE bonus! 

It is my favorite repro 400E!

I bought the classic's blue comet from mth when it came out  in 89 ,,called mth,,ask if they could put a whistle in the tender,,they said they could I would have to pay shipping each way and the cost would have been 50 bucks in 89,,,didnt do it,,but had the gray one,was a nice addition  

Thanks for the replies.  Mines a black one but I'm a natural skeptic, so I've attached some pics so you guys aren't guessing blind.  The motor appears old, but I'm thinking the rest may be a repaint.  There is a fixing tab on each of the sand domes broken off so I think its safe to say its been completely apart.  The thing that troubles me are the brass handrails.  Any black 400e I've seen pictures of, has copper handrails.  My Loco and tender have all brass handrails.  The wiring looks new even to both lights so maybe light sockets were replaced.  Drum style E unit looks like the ones I'm used to seeing in the O gauge locos.  Not sure if its been changed.  Let me know if you need more pics.

   That is a nicely restored original made in USA 1931-32 400E. Someone removed the pesky 2 position pendulum reverse unit and installed a more reliable 3 position unit. Good thing if you want to operate it. Looks great, and enjoy it!

Average quality restoration of an original vintage Lionel 400E. Reproduction pumps. Incorrect handrails on boiler and pilot. Reproduction headlight trim ring and lens. Reproduction Cab "L" emblems. Missing pilot coupler. Incorrect motor pick up plate. Wrong E-Unit. Incorrect motor mounting (No clips). None the less, in my opinion, better than a new one.

Gandy