5 Rail Switches

12 foot radius is O-288.

As far as I know no one is making 5 rail switches. I would be happy if someone made 5 rail curves pre built! 

ADCX Rob posted:

12 foot radius is O-288.

You are right, 12 foot diameter, math was never my favorite subject. 

Chris Lonero posted:

As far as I know no one is making 5 rail switches. I would be happy if someone made 5 rail curves pre built! 

 

As I understand it, you can take USA Track in Standard Gauge and slip in the O Gauge rais and ties. I donly know if you have to do it yourself or can they do it for you? 

I would love the abilityoto double gauge my entire layout but without switches it is not possible. 

5 rail track is a novelty item at best. Do you have any idea how many frogs a 5 rail switch would have? I don't think it would be possible to get the four points to work because there wouldn't be enough room. It would make a double slip look simple.

Now there might be a way to pull something like this off. If you have ever seen a cog rail switch, that concept would work with 5 rail. All a cog switch consists of is a straight section and a curved section side by side. To throw it, the correct section is just slides into place.

A 5-rail switch seems like a tall order. A more practical alternative is to have the O and Std tracks diverge and then use regular switches on each line. Or just have separate rights of way to start with.

It's complicated enough without a center rail.

They say Ross will build anything. 

Money talks...

If anyone could do it,  Ross would be the one.

Jack

Gentlemen,

   When running 5 rail you are talking about running Tin Plate Trains in most cases, Ross is a great company, however in this case I do not think they would even consider making 5 rail switches that would be Tin plate compatible, even their O Gauge Tin Plate Switches are just an identifying name, and will not accommodate all Tin Plate Trains.   I doubt Ross would even consider engineering Tin Plate 5 rail switches, unless they 1st engineered their own 5 rail Tin Plate Ross track, to go with it.  Do not see that happening any time soon.

PCRR/Dave

In the past there's been a guy in Silver Hall (along the back wall) at York selling plans for a 5-rail switch along with parts to make the switches.

Scott Smith

I did a quick drawing to figure out what it would take to make one. It takes 6 frogs and 4 points, not quite as bad as what I first thought. This would still be electrically difficult, as there are a lot of short rail segments that would need to be powered.

I think ACE's idea is more feasible and practical.  If you have the room.

jim pastorius posted:

I think ACE's idea is more feasible and practical.  If you have the room.

ACE, can you give us a little bit more detailed description of your idea? Elliot, could you schematic that out?

Tim

One gauge can diverge from the other with two frogs and no points. This arrangement can be built fairly easy, compared to a 5-rail switch. After the two gauges have divided, each track can use regular switches.

This is a quicky illustration with SCARM which does not show all the guard rails associated with the frogs. I omitted the center rails for clarity.

Tim, this is the Mount Washington Cog Railway in New Hampshire. This is one of two sliding section switches located mid mountain, to form a passing siding where the uphill and downhill trains can meet. If this looks a little strange, it's because you are seeing it in mid throw.

Here you can see it fully thrown.

This is what I was getting at in my first post. It has zero frogs and zero points.

Here's a video of one in action.

navy.seal posted:

The TCA member who sells books at York on how to build switches is Rich (Dick) Reichard.  Several years ago I asked him if he had written a manual on how to build 5-rail switches.  He hadn't but proceeded to write one.   As noted above, he routinely has a table at York where he sells this manual and other "How To Make" books on custom track fabrication.  As  I recall he has a website which has an order form.

 

Bob Nelson

 

 

 

I sent Rich an e-mail a few days ago. Have not heard from him. My contact info may be a bit old.

Steve

Below is the link to Rich (Dick) Reichard's website on which you can find a variety of track fabrication plans for sale as well as such essentials as rail benders as well as his contact information.

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...ce-Ordering-Form.pdf

I didn't see his 5-rail switch construction plan listed. 

Bob Nelson

You might give through to the possibility of using a stub switch, which has no frogs.  There's one at the EBT station in PA, and there's one on the grounds of the Colorado RR Museum in Golden CO.

Ace, that's an interesting full-size RR switch you show.  I've seen on the C&T in Antonio, dual rail track where all trains used one of the rails, but your picture seems to show a completely different pair for the narrower gauge.  Where is it?

RJR, I've thought of a stub switch, but I don't think it will work for this application, because as Tim points out, the 5 rail is hard to bend. The stub switch relies on the rail bending. This works for the light weight narrow gauge rail with the mechanical advantage provided by the switch stand, and the short distance it has to move.

For a stub to work here, the rails have to travel a minimum of a full gauge width of the standard gauge, and it's just too stiff to do that. That's why I proposed the "section swap" method of the cog railway. Does the same thing without bending.

I too was curious about that photo Ace posted, and looked it up. It is a tourist railroad in France. Never seen anything quite like it.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

 

... I too was curious about that photo Ace posted, and looked it up. It is a tourist railroad in France ...

CFBS is a meter-gauge tourist railway on the north coast of France, about 50 miles SSW of Calais. It's curious that their dual-gauge track uses four rails, since most dual gauge tracks share a common rail. For the purpose of the 5-rail switch discussion, it shows the arrangement of the running rails through a dual-gauge switch.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/...ex.php?curid=6645428

Big Boy, the prototype stub switches I have seen only move a few inches, not the full gauge.  Remember that, unless your locos only have a single roller, the center rail(s) need not be continuous so long as you provide a smooth dielectric path for the roller, so it doesn't hang up or short on an outside rail.

navy.seal posted:

Below is the link to Rich (Dick) Reichard's website on which you can find a variety of track fabrication plans for sale as well as such essentials as rail benders as well as his contact information.

http://tcaetrain.org/articles/...ce-Ordering-Form.pdf

I didn't see his 5-rail switch construction plan listed. 

Bob Nelson

 

 

Reichard published "How to Fabricate 5 Rail Switches - Standard Gauge - 042 (031 Profile)" in September 2008. The price for his loose leaf template drawings of a number of variations of Standard gauge and five rail configurations, was $35. To my knowledge he's still an alive 80-year old gentleman. A copy is in the TCA's National Toy Train Library files.

Ron M

RJR posted:

Big Boy, the prototype stub switches I have seen only move a few inches, not the full gauge.  Remember that, unless your locos only have a single roller, the center rail(s) need not be continuous so long as you provide a smooth dielectric path for the roller, so it doesn't hang up or short on an outside rail.

I understand that, but the points that the stub switch eliminates, aren't the big problem for the 5 rail. It's all the frogs, which, if you only move the short distance of the stub design, makes the problem even worse. This is why I'm suggesting that the rails have to move a full standard gauge width, because that's where all the frogs go away.

In a normal stub switch those rails still have to cross each other, and allow the wheel flanges to get through. By placing the rails right next to each other, the frogs have to be very low angle, making the design more, not less difficult.

The reason the stub switch works, especially in a 3 way situation, is because it is single gauge. You are only dealing with 2 rails, not 5. It's the 4 running rails that make this complicated. The center rail is really an after thought.

Have to agree with you Big Boy.  Was just trying to offer ideas.  Sounds like a lot of custom trackwork would be involved..

A five-rail switch is just asking for problems. It's too complicated to be reliable for typical 3-rail trains, especially for typical vintage tinplate which often has sloppy wheel gauge.

Show me a dual-gauge layout plan that someone is seriously considering building with 5-rail switches, and I'll show you a more practical way to do it.

A 5 rail switch looks way too complicated to me. Prototypes don't have the hot center rail to deal with.

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

navy.seal posted:

The TCA member who sells books at York on how to build switches is Rich (Dick) Reichard.  Several years ago I asked him if he had written a manual on how to build 5-rail switches.  He hadn't but proceeded to write one.   As noted above, he routinely has a table at York where he sells this manual and other "How To Make" books on custom track fabrication.  As  I recall he has a website which has an order form.

 

Bob Nelson

 

 

 

I sent Rich an e-mail a few days ago. Have not heard from him. My contact info may be a bit old.

Steve

Dick got back to me today. He had been out of town. He confirmed he does have the manual on building 5 rail switches as well as a 45 degree crossover. He built and tested them himself. I have decided to go ahead and order the manual. Don't know if I will ever build them, but it might make a fun project.

Steve

It would be a very interesting project.  Making 5 rail track-what do you do on curves ??   What diameter is Standard gauge ?? 

jim pastorius posted:

It would be a very interesting project.  Making 5 rail track-what do you do on curves ??   What diameter is Standard gauge ?? 

According to Rich's "Material List" one could use old or new track. Dimensions are for provided for 42", 54" and 72" diameter Standard Gauge and 31", 42", 54" and 72" diameter 0-gauge track.

Ron M

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Tim, this is the Mount Washington Cog Railway in New Hampshire. This is one of two sliding section switches located mid mountain, to form a passing siding where the uphill and downhill trains can meet. If this looks a little strange, it's because you are seeing it in mid throw.

Here you can see it fully thrown.

This is what I was getting at in my first post. It has zero frogs and zero points.

Here's a video of one in action.

Definitely gives new meaning to "bending the iron". From video it sounds like points are motor driven.

The other day I took a piece of old, solid Standard gauge track and removed the center rail but left 3 metal cross ties. By trimming about 1/8" off Gargraves wooden ties it laid down nicely between the standard outside rails. Next tried O gauge and the outer rails were a bit taller than the Standard  so I tried 027 and the piece fits in nicely plus the same height.  The problem with 027 is the lack of different curve pieces. It would be nice to fasten the O gauge rails to the Standard metal ties but how ??

Here are some pictures Dick sent me. Not real high resolution.

Steve

A 5-rail switch, that's quite a construction project!  Many of the old tinplate trains need more accurate wheel gauging just to handle conventional switches.

Next thing, someone will want plans for a 5-rail double slip ...   

there has been talk about 5 rail ties,  if an when who knows,

I dragged a manual Std. Gauge switch plus some track pieces out of the attic and looked at them for awhile. I think a conversion is possible but more answers are needed before I start.