6-18004 Steam Locomotive Jerks @ Slow Speed

Hi, if you are seeing a lot of blue sparks from the motor, you probably need to fit new brushes and clean the commutator. (Assuming that this is a pullmor motor.)

This should help to improve jerky running at low speeds. 

Here is what I think is the exploded diagram for this engine.  Might help you with disassembly and motor clean up.

http://colemancoyne.com/images...131-8004Complete.pdf

Quick tips on motor maintenance.

http://themotordoctor.com/motor_tuneups.htm

It's a PullMor w/ MagneTraction.  And the brushes appear a little uneven, and pitted.  My guess is this wasn't an "unrun" train.  Oh well.  I performed a quick polish, but not sure I'm seeing much improvement.  I will look into ordering some new brushes, assuming they can be found.  I'll use Mr. Lord's "doc" and see what he says.  

Follow-Up:  Guess the brushes aren't so difficult to find after all.  Oh, the wonder world of "Googles".  

Thanks.  Definitely the right engine/motor.  Looks like it may need new brushes.  We'll start with that and go from there.  Thanks!  And thanks to NQDY, whom I forgot to officially "thank".  

I truly love the spirit of individuals on this forum to help out.  

I have a Lionel Mohawk from those days, and these locos were mechanically identical

to your 4-8-4, so far as I know. Mine has been converted to a can motor, but I

hesitated to do that for a long time as the Mohawk (and I suppose the Reading 4-8-4)

was one of the best-running Pullmor locos that I have ever seen - and I'm not a big

AC motor fan.

So, your 4-8-4 can most likely be massaged and tuned up to make it a good runner.

My AC Mohawk would even "creep", by Pullmor standards, at least. 

Always glad to hear from a newbie! Welcome to the Forum!

The brush SPRINGS may need to be replaced as well. They should push smoothly and steadily and allow the brushes to move up and down a bit as they contact the commutator. Heat can weaken them. Clean the tubes around the brushes as well.

If you can remove the armature, check the field around it. If the field around the armature is dirty/greasy/gunky, the armature won't turn well.

Just take one step at a time and see how each one works. We should have your Reading locomotive up and running.

And I'm pretty sure there's no bell in this engine, so yes, you'll get a whistle both ways.

Jon

Thanks.  Spring and brushes are certainly cheap enough I'll get both (and maybe a few more internals).  Can't hurt, but cannot see myself paying more in postage than parts (though not complaining on the parts prices).  

Armature is shiny shiny shiny now.  Gave it a second cleaning, and noticed that the brushes were half-shiny and half-black, after about 5 laps around the track.  My guess is they should be 100% shiny or black, but not partial.  

One last question - removing the wheels.  I considered it.  Even had the drive arms partially removed.  But those wheels appear well affixed.  Is there a trick to removing them and then (as importantly) affixing them back correctly?  Didn't feel like moving forward before I had advice - I know my limitations.  

I'll add one more thing I observed today, in case this brings a different or additional diagnosis.  When powering it up, like I said before, it needs about 40% power before it will move (and then it typically jumps into action).  But,  at slightly below that I can give it a gentle "nudge" and sometimes that gets it going.  May not be relevant, but thought I'd add it in case it was. 

Thanks again.  I'm actually enjoying "working" on the locomotive.  Normally, especially with a "new" purchase, I'd just be red now.  But it is a 20+ year old train, it's bound to need something.  And the people here are just great.  Thanks again all!

There could also be a mechanical problem causing excessive drag. Alignment of the motor, hardened grease in the gearbox, any number of things could cause drag. I have a similar Northern and I remember that, several years ago, an experienced service guy shimmed the motor because it was out of alignment and the repair caused the unit to run more smoothly. 

Chuck.  Is there another name for this?  I could not find anything on the schematics with this name.  

It is called a 'E-unit'. vs. a electronic reverse unit. The copper wiping fingers may not have enough pressure on the rotating drum, causing it to sputter when it runs. If there is TOO much pressure on the fingers, it will cause the plunger more drag and the unit may not cycle until more voltage is applied, causing jack rabbit starts when the pawl pulls up and cycle the drum to the next operating state.

These engines are noted for poor running characteristics. Angle of the motor, excessive lateral play or lack of in the rear axle, bent side rods, poorly located or out of round screw holes in the side rods, wheels out of quarter, smoke unit cam and cam lever poorly installed, field windings on the motor not even across the width of the insulator, bent armature shaft, poorly installed armature shaft bearings - all these things I have found on these engines. Sometimes one engine can have all the problems.

Interesting development, or as I'd like to say .... what??? Heard what appeared to be rubbing.  Essentially I was manually rolling the drive wheels, trying to listen for and feel friction.

Rub sounded to me at first to be the plunger that pumps the smoke out through the stack. There are 2 screws that hold the smoker unit to the frame. I remove those 2 screws, and pulled the smoker up, away from the plunger. I turned the wheels - still heard the rubbing noise, but I'll be darned if it didn't feel like there was a reduction in friction.  I've been playing with this bugger for a few days , so figured at this point I was just "disillusional" or getting buzzed on the smoker fumes (which works fine I might add).

Put the plunger back in the smoker. Affixed first frame screw. Went to affix second, and wha wha wha??? Screw hole was well off center. Figured it was "Re-Installer" error. Removed screw, tried again, same result. Removed screw, tried other side, same result. Figuring "what could happen - how could leaving 1 screw out make this worse??", I tightened down one side and left the other open.

Next, found the "rub". One of the valve gear assemblies. Loosened the screw a bit, and rub noise went away. Threw on the cab, and ran it. Maybe she doesn't crawl to a start like I'd hoped she would (and maybe that's just the way it is), but she's running much better, especially in slow downs and stops.

Still appears to need about 1/3 power and kinda bolts into action, but much improved.

Added a $5 valve gear assembly to the parts order, figure that might be an indication one is going. 

Much happier today.  Starting to think that maybe she wasn't run, but that there was some tension on the frame with the smoker assembly.  Also appears to be some rust around the lever and piston assembly.  I will try to clean that out tomorrow, as that can't be lessening any friction.  

Tonight was the first night I ran the train and didn't add any grey hairs.  Keep throwing out ideas, I'll keep chugging (no pun intended) away.   

426, I think you are thinking of the wrong engine from your post. He has the 18006 Reading with the spur drive motor like the postwar 2055, not the 8006 Reading 4-8-4.

Looking at Chris Lord's exploded diagram, I wondered whether a postwar motor, E-unit and smoke unit would fit inside that boiler casting. It may not have Baldwin disc drivers but it would run and smoke better.

Chuck,

    I think 426 was writing about the 6-18004. I have heard that Lionel Reading T-1's (6-18006) don't pull well (no traction tires) and that their Pullmor motors aren't as smooth and powerful as can motors. But I haven't heard anyone associate other problems 426 mentions with Lionel T-1's.

   Southwest Hiawatha mentioned shimming the motor on a similar Northern but that is minor compared to those other problems.

    Lionel T-1's have been upgraded with can motors, traction tires and electronics, but no one has mentioned out-of-quarter drivers and other manufacturing gaffes.

    Richard Kughn was the CEO of Lionel and one of 4 owners of the real 2100 when that model was introduced. Draftsmen took measurements from the real 2100 in the WM roundhouse in Hagerstown. Mike Wolf supervised production overseas. That was Lionel's largest locomotive to date as well as Lionel's first new "scale" model since the NYC Hudson, Pennsy B6 switcher, and freight cars in the late 1930's and early 1940's. There was HUGE publicity when that model came out, including a color flyer. Everyone associated with that project insisted on top quality.

    Has anyone noticed that "Pullmor" is actually an American Flyer name? AF catalogs used that for years. Lionel acquired AF in the mid-1960's. After MPC acquired Lionel around 1969, "Pullmor" was applied to Lionel motors.

OOPS! Posted from work unable to see my engine - I saw zeros and a low number and went for it. Funny thing is that I have the spur drive Reading also - never out of the box. Maybe I should test it.

I agree with Reading Fan, I have an 8206, with the off center wheels and the waddling duck syndrome. I spent the money for a mechanism from a 2065 with a broken body shell, and transplanted the motor with the modern liquid smoke mechanism, and it is much improved. I have serviced several of the 4-6-2 locos, and all were pretty decent runners once serviced and broken in. Keep us posted on your progress. 

Actually to clear the numbers up,

The 18004 is the Reading 4-6-2 with the 2055 boiler shell and similar motors. \

The 8006 is the JC Penny Silver Shadow and is similar to the larger Huudon

The 18006 is the Scale sized Reading 4-8-4.

I assume his engine is the 18004 Reading with the spur gear motor?

All - Thank you everyone for responding and providing suggestions.

The 4-6-2 is running like a true champ now.  As crazy as it sounds, the "misaligned" smoker seems to have been the culprit.  As soon as I removed that one screw, it ran much much better.  

I'm not sure I'll need the motor brushes or the valve gear assembly, but you can never have too many spare parts.  

I'm very happy with this loco, and I'm looking forward to many future years running it.  

Thanks again everyone for your posts.  Feels good to finally get her running like she should be.  

Not crazy at all. That smoke unit is linked to a crosshead; that crosshead is linked to the drivers; the drivers are geared to the motor. So the misalignment interfered with the running gear.

This is probably the first time in the history of our Forum that a balky locomotive was fixed by removing one screw. You should get points for that.