a "powering staging" question

Walt, no worry.  My layout has each of 6 TIU outputs feeding directly into a control panel, where each hopscotches from toggle switch to toggle switch, a dozen or more per circuit.  Eeach of the 70 or so blocks on my layout is toggle switched.  NO problems.

If you find that turning on a toggle switch--even with nothing on that block--adversely affects signal strength on your main line, add an 18-volt bulb to that block.

If all your locomotives are DCS-equipped, why do you need to shut the power off on the tracks? Just shut down the locomotives individually and leave the track power on. It won't hurt anything.

Rich,

why do you need to shut the power off on the tracks?

Because PS2 and PS3 engines run their chronometers and heat their electronics, neither of which is desirable, any time the engines are drawing power.

If the motor is not running and the sounds are shut off, what is drawing the current to generate the heat? That doesn't make any sense.

One of the big attractions of command control is the ability to eliminate big control panels and all their associated wiring and toggle switches. It pretty much defeats the purpose of command control if you can't leave the engines shut down sitting on a powered track. Bad design.

I'm with you Rich, why is the hour meeting running if the machine is not. Good thing that doesn't happen to my equipment over the winter when the battery tenders are on.

Barry, I have read your book several times. Like anything that contains so much information it does not all sink in at once, at least for me.  This is especially true if you have not physically handled the unit. 

I just looked up your above statement about chonometers running and boards getting heat. There it is on page 59 of your book. I did wonder a time or two why chronometer readings were so high. 

I have also mislead others with wiring suggestions for yards, I need to be a better listener until my knowledge grows, sorry to those I misled. I had toggle switches in place for conventional, I by-passed all of them when I went strictly Legacy and DCS.

Barry, I don't mind if chronometer adds time as long as there are no ill affects other then decreasing resale value. Are there? What are concerns with boards heating, I would guess reduced life. Anything else?

Im assuming I should move my Legacy engines when not used to unpowered track also. I now know my weekend plans. I have a 9-10 signal on my entire layout, I will follow your book when adding back in the toggles as far as wiring goes. 

Im glad I read this thread. I try to read most everything since I am still relatively new to Legacy and DCS. Everyday I add a tid bit of knowledge but this is not a tid bit...it's huge. 

This is exactly what you SHOULD be able to do!

It defies logic that the chronometer still runs and heat is generated when the locomotive is shut down. That makes no sense at all.

There are some very good reasons for having the ability to turn off blocks through the use of toggle switches.  Here are some:

1. Prevents stealth mode runaways.

2. Permits parking incandescent-illuminated cars on dead sidings without lights burning to shorten their lives or overheat plastic

3. On a large layout, makes it easier to find the cause/location of a short.

Rich,

If the motor is not running and the sounds are shut off, what is drawing the current to generate the heat? That doesn't make any sense.

The PS2 board is drawing power to be able to sense the watchdog signal and look for startup commands. You might also note that TMCC and Legacy engines do similar things for similar reasons. Although I know next to nothing about DCC, I expect that DCC engines do similar things, as well. As long as the engine's track is powered, the electronics are operating.

Also, as long as power is available, the command control electronics are aware of it and will use it to charge the battery in a PS2 engine.

It defies logic that the chronometer still runs and heat is generated when the locomotive is shut down. That makes no sense at all.

Actually, if time under power is considered to be one measure of the use of an electronic component, then it stands to reason that the clock that measures usage should record that usage, even if the engine is quiescent.

Lastly, I didn't say that the board generates any discernible heat per se, rather, I stated that the power "heats the electronics", a euphemism for keeping the board operative.

Jeff,

I am not only shocked but P O ed that this is the case. Huge flaw. It is not a wireless system if I have to run around throwing toggles.

Shocked? Only if you grab the wrong wires!  

You only need to install toggle switches if you want to. They're strictly optional for command control, however, they do have their benefits.

There's no "flaw" here. The DCS engines must be able to have the board respond to a command, and they must be drawing power to do so.

Do you have a TV with a remote control??  Even when turned OFF the TV is still drawing current and generating heat (just a little of both).  The receiver and 'brain' must be powered and awake, waiting on your command to turn on.

PS2/3 and TMCC/Legacy engine do the same thing.  The electronics have to be "on/awake/powered" in order to receive, recognize and act upon the signals you send.  And, the chronometer is rightly recording the operating time on the board.

BTW, on PS2/3 engines you can do far more than "start up" when it's sitting there in stealth mode.  You can set the lights, sounds, smoke and performance parameters before you hit "start up".

(Slow typist, I guess)

So you have contradicted yourself and are now saying it IS OK to leave track power on? Since no actual heat is generated I guess it must be OK now.

Rich,

So you have contradicted yourself and are now saying it IS OK to leave track power on?

No, I haven't contradicted myself at all.

Kindly re-read my posts as written without attempting to read anything into them that really isn't there, or make any additional assumptions.

I never said it was good or bad to use toggle switches. I simply explained what are the consequences and benefits of doing so.

Maybe manufacturers should just use another hour meter monitor to show how much time a particular train is actually powered on.  I usually leave the trains I am not operating at the time off.  I do leave them sitting on the track to charge and have no ill effects. 

If a person properly maintains their trains isn't that more important than where they sit as long as they are properly taken care of?

Couldn't there be two sensors if there's a need to know how much time a train has power to the pickups- it could be noted under a different category time so a person knows how much time a train that has not been turned on has just been sitting on a track that has some power to it.  Just an idea.

Have a blessed day

Terry

Hey Barry..... Is it really all that bad to let them sit on a powered siding?

Clem K

If it's OK I'd like to get back to my question, even though reading the above "debate" was interesting!

What RJR said is why I want to power down the sidings.  I have 2 passenger trains and I don't want the lights on all the time.  Each of my 8 trains will have something that I don't want powered up all the time.

I also knew already about the chronometer incrementing the whole time and that doesn't bother me since I have no intention of selling my engines.  But having power on and the boards electrified the entire time isn't to my liking.

OK, back to the question: if the toggles are in the OFF position is that or is that not considered as splitting the DCS signal for each toggle?

thanks - walt

Clem,

Is it really all that bad to let them sit on a powered siding?

It's neither good or bad, per se. It's just as I described it above.

Walt,

 if the toggles are in the OFF position is that or is that not considered as splitting the DCS signal for each toggle?

No, it is not.

If you have a single power feed to a series of ON/OFF switches it would be a single split, even if all of the switches are OFF.  If one switch is turned ON it would still be a single split.  If two switches are turned on it would be a single split (the power feed) and then a double split (the two tracks that are powered on).

Gary,

If you have a single power feed to a series of ON/OFF switches it would be a single split, even if all of the switches are OFF

I must respectfully disagree, based upon my personal experience.

I have a pair of rotary switches for my transfer table yard that each have one output and 11-12 inputs.

The input to each rotary is fed from a terminal block that also services about 12-14 other sidings. Yet, I have solid "10's" across every siding connected to either rotary switch.

By your thinking, this would make each siding in the transfer table yard have a DCS signal strength that would reflect the signal being split at least 12 ways at the terminal block and then that 1/12 being split at least 11 ways at the rotary switch, for an equivalent of 1/132 of the original signal. That surely would not yield a "10", as measured using either my original Rev. I3 TIU or the current Rev. L.

I expect that the reason that the open switch does not constitute a split is because there is no circuit being completed unless the switch is closed and something (engine, car, lighted bumper) is straddling the rails.

The rotary switches will only connect to one track at a time each.  Therefore, your transfer table yard only constitutes two splits total.

Gary,

The rotary switches will only connect to one track at a time each.  Therefore, your transfer table yard only constitutes two splits total.

Perhaps that was a bad example.  

if the toggles are in the OFF position is that or is that not considered as splitting the DCS signal for each toggle?

Regardless, consider the following in regards to Walt's original question:

• The wires from the terminal block do not constitute a powered circuit when the associated toggle switch is open or when nothing is bridging the siding's center and outside rails (lighted bumper, lighted car or engine)
• Therefore, there is no difference of potential between the terminal block's pair of terminals and the ends of the wires to which they are connected. This is also true when the toggle switch is closed but nothing is bridging the center and outer rails 
• Therefore, there is no circuit carrying electricity and consequently there is no electrical path along which the DCS signal, which is digital data packets rather than RF, can flow.

There's no split unless the circuit is completed.

If the DCS signal used the wires as an antenna, as do TMCC and Legacy, then there would be a split.

Walt, go ahead and do what you want, bearing in mind the lamp trick I mentioned.  Ignore all this BS & run trains, like I do with my dozens of "splits," common bus, & no "star" wiring or terminal blocks.

thank you all for your opinions and insight.

I believe I will do this:

1) I will run my paired wiring from the trannie to '_' and '+' terminal blocks, and then from there to the 6 lockons on the mainline (star wiring concept). 

2) I will run just one '+' from that same trannie's output post - the same one as used for '+' in step 1 - to a terminal block located near the 6 toggles.  I will connect each toggle to that terminal block, and then on to the 6 stage tracks' center rail from there.

3) For '-' on the 6 stage, I will connect the outer rail to the '-' terminal block referenced in step 1.

thanks again for helping me reach a decision.

- walt

Walt,

1) I will run my paired wiring from the trannie to '_' and '+' terminal blocks, and then from there to the 6 lockons on the mainline (star wiring concept). 

 

2) I will run just one '+' from that same trannie's output post - the same one as used for '+' in step 1 - to a terminal block located near the 6 toggles.  I will connect each toggle to that terminal block, and then on to the 6 stage tracks' center rail from there.

 

3) For '-' on the 6 stage, I will connect the outer rail to the '-' terminal block referenced in step 1.

Assuming that by "trannie" you mean the TIU's channel output, that is overly complicated and achieves nothing.

The above will split the DCS signal once at the output of the TIU and again in each terminal block, ensuring that each block has 1/12 of the DCS signal as long as any toggle is closed. Rather, you should do the following:

• Just use 1 terminal block for all 12 of the sidings
• Wire your toggles where they belong.

This will allow more signal strength when any toggle is open. The more open toggles, the more signal strength each active block gets because there is no split if a toggle is open.

yes Barry I did make a major slip up by saying 'trannie'.  I did mean, as you pointed out in your correction, the TIU output post.

I can use the same terminal blocks (+ and -) for the 6 mainline lockons and the 6 stage tracks so I'll take that advice.  It just won't be as convenient wiring wise. 

The mainline terminal blocks are hidden under a hill about 15' away from the TIU.  The toggles are right next to the TIU.  This means I have to run 6 wires from the terminal block that is 15' away all the way back to where the TIU is (which is where the toggles are) and then from the toggles on to the 6 stage tracks. 

That's why I thought it would be OK to run 2 wires from the + on the TIU, one way out to the far away terminal block and 1 to a terminal block sitting right next to the TIU and the toggles.

Don't know what you mean by "where they belong".  Assume just one toggle for a moment: I run a + from the terminal block to the toggle and then from there on to the stage track.  Where else can it go???? 

Don't want to sound argumentative, not at all.  One should not ask for advice if one is not willing to accept it!!!

thanks - walt

Walt,

First, my post mis-spoke. You should do both bullets, not choose one over the other.

Second, "where they belong" means to put a toggle in the Hot wire for whichever sidings you want to be able to turn off.

The toggles are right next to the TIU.  This means I have to run 6 wires from the terminal block that is 15' away all the way back to where the TIU is (which is where the toggles are) and then from the toggles on to the 6 stage tracks. 

Move the terminal block to be next to the TIU. You'll only have to run the wires 15' in one direction, not twice.

I wouold avoid running wires an extra 30', a round trip to the terminal block.  I guess that moving the terminal block from under the mountain entails work.  Why not run the staging tracks' terminal block from a second wire right at the TIU output, and see what results you get before a major rewiring?

Robert,

Why not run the staging tracks' terminal block from a second wire right at the TIU output, and see what results you get before a major rewiring?

It's really not any "rework" because Walt's layout is seasonal and is re-built every holiday season.

Regardless, he could also just run a second TIU channel to the second terminal block for the toggled sidings. Both TIU channels could be powered by the same transformer.

I agree that the best approach would be to use another TIU channel for the staging sidings, but I read Walt's initial post as saying that he was already using all 4 channels.

For reasons I needn't get into, I once had to take the wire from one TIU output and add it to another, creating literally dozens of toggles on that circuit, with no ill effects.

Thanks Barry and RJR for jumping back in.  Thanks too for keeping differences of opinion civil !!!!

Yes I have all 4 TIU outputs already accounted for (4 separate sets of trackage).

Barry, this is probably a really trivial topic relative to all of the other ones that you offer advice in, so I appreciate you jumping in.  RJR too!

But Barry, if I put the terminal blocks by the TIU for that set of trackage, then I still have to run 5 LONG wires from there to reach the mainline lockons (only 1 is close).

I think it comes down to me making a decision on from where to where I feel like running multiple wires.

thanks for all of your time and your suggestions

walt

Walt, as I've indicated, my 6 TIU outputs go directly to an adjacent control pane, whereon are located the toggle switches, and from each switch a wire runs to the particular block.  Some are a good 40' long, wjhich isn't a problem with 14-gauge wire.