AlanRail posted:how can you interpret "road specific details" to mean 100% accurate details enough to fully satisfy the rivet counters?
it means that there will be some road specific details. which is true even if its just the road name logos.
Then on the other hand, the manufacturer COULD make the model LOOK like what is advertised, and stated, in their catalog! Isn't THAT a novel idea?
AlanRail posted:how can you interpret "road specific details" to mean 100% accurate details enough to fully satisfy the rivet counters?
it means that there will be some road specific details. which is true even if its just the road name logos.
bingo.
In fact, this whole posting seems like one of those efforts falling into the 'No-good-deed-goes-unpunished!' category.
Perhaps Lionel would've been farther ahead....certainly no farther 'behind'?...to have simply applied their judgment of road-specific details to the product without advertising the same. In which case their catalogue caveat..."Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design, and availability."...would allow them to add road-specific details.....to the delight of the customer not expecting the same!!! Wow.Something extra delivered.... but not expected! 
...resulting in forum posts of 'What a wonderful surprise!', 'Looking forward to your next releases!', 'Keep up the good work!....LOVE it!', 'What a paradigm shift....getting MORE than one expects!', ......etc., etc., blah, blah.
Encouragement. It's in short supply everywhere...........and that's too bad.
But, that's just MHO.
KD
bigdodgetrain posted:F&G RY posted:Landsteiner posted:an insult to what 2 people?
they are toys.
want a scale model, get HO.
IMO!!!
I don't think the size of the train should have anything to do with its "toy" status. What if it was a brass 2-rail o gauge model, does that make it a toy because it was o gauge? What if I take two fine scale HO models and race them? A crazy thing to do perhaps, but it doesn't make them less scale. Furthermore, many HO scale modelers use waybills and timetables to run their trains authentically with "Fast clocks", often needing to get their switching done before the passenger trains roll in. The gamification of model trains makes them toys.
The entire "scale model" vs "toy train" debate is flawed when people don't consider "toy train" to mean non-scale to begin with. Lionel trains have been marketed for over a decade as scale, often with road names that are not 100% correct, such as the Great Northern 4-4-2 in the current catalog.
The problem has never been the term "scale model" the problem is being told there are "road specific details" without elaboration on what details those are.
Then on the other hand, the manufacturer COULD make the model LOOK like what is advertised, and stated, in their catalog! Isn't THAT a novel idea?
INCORRECT! If you go to build a house you usually have an actual plan that details what will be constructed. And the contractor is only held to a reasonable compliance of the plan. Not perfect tender.
With a product, while it's true that the perfect tender rule applies, a photo is not a contract nor reliable evidence of what will be manufactured. It's just a photo.
Should Lionel ever provide a detailed engineered drawing of the product in their catalog, and then state that the product will be 100% in conformance with the drawing. THEN a quasi-contract is implied, if you purchase. The perfect tender rule applies and the engine must match the detailed drawing.
IN THAT CASE, Hot Water is correct.
However, LIONEL will never do that!!
AlanRail posted:Then on the other hand, the manufacturer COULD make the model LOOK like what is advertised, and stated, in their catalog! Isn't THAT a novel idea?
INCORRECT! If you go to build a house you usually have an actual plan that details what will be constructed. And the contractor is only held to a reasonable compliance of the plan. Not perfect tender.
With a product, while it's true that the perfect tender rule applies, a photo is not a contract nor reliable evidence of what will be manufactured. It's just a photo.
Should Lionel ever provide a detailed engineered drawing of the product in their catalog, and then state that the product will be 100% in conformance with the drawing. THEN a quasi-contract is implied, if you purchase. The perfect tender rule applies and the engine must match the detailed drawing.
IN THAT CASE, Hot Water is correct.
However, LIONEL will never do that!!
Geez, totally irrelevant.
Hotwater did NOT state that a manufacturer is required to produce exactly what is pictured. He just said they COULD!
Hot Water posted:AlanRail posted:how can you interpret "road specific details" to mean 100% accurate details enough to fully satisfy the rivet counters?
it means that there will be some road specific details. which is true even if its just the road name logos.
Then on the other hand, the manufacturer COULD make the model LOOK like what is advertised, and stated, in their catalog! Isn't THAT a novel idea?
Would you really want locomotives produced to these catalog illustrations? 
E8:
E7:
Rusty
Interesting. Not one reply on this post pointed out a road specific item on the NY&O F3 's. I now feel dumber for reading it.
I would like to see the screened detail between the porthole windows and hand railings applied on the nose in front of the windshield and wherever appropriate. I'd like the proper colors chosen to paint the model. These road specific details and many more are easily found in printed material online and in books. As a member of the O&W Railway Historical Society, I'm sure society would be willing to help Lionel with obtaining these road specific details such as correct color samples and much more.
Whatever help I can be to Lionel to make them right, I am willing and offer my assistance to them. In the end, we all hope the finished models make many people very happy.
I know I have seen the "Builders Photos" of them on the old interweb, but can't locate them at the moment.
I really hope they get them right; however, I may have to reach out to Central Hanover Bank and Trust to afford them... (O&W fans will get this...)
JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:
I would like to see the screened detail between the porthole windows and hand railings applied on the nose in front of the windshield and wherever appropriate. I'd like the proper colors chosen to paint the model. These road specific details and many more are easily found in printed material online and in books. As a member of the O&W Railway Historical Society, I'm sure society would be willing to help Lionel with obtaining these road specific details such as correct color samples and much more.
Whatever help I can be to Lionel to make them right, I am willing and offer my assistance to them. In the end, we all hope the finished models make many people very happy.
YES! The famous "Chicken Wire" F3 units, with the low cooling fans. How special is THAT?
Hot Water posted:JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:YES! The famous "Chicken Wire" F3 units, with the low cooling fans. How special is THAT?
Well, the rendering on Lionel's website at least suggests both...
Fingers crossed...
Rusty Traque posted:Hot Water posted:... Then on the other hand, the manufacturer COULD make the model LOOK like what is advertised, and stated, in their catalog! Isn't THAT a novel idea?
Would you really want locomotives produced to these catalog illustrations?
...
Oh I don't know... I was always fond of the way Pennsy green locomotives and rolling stock appeared in Lionel's catalogs...
Oh my!!! 
Jim Harrington posted:Hot Water posted:JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:YES! The famous "Chicken Wire" F3 units, with the low cooling fans. How special is THAT?
Well, the rendering on Lionel's website at least suggests both...
Fingers crossed...
While these renderings are encouraging, lets hope they follow through. I'd still like to see additional hand railings too. There cannot too much detail for F-unit diesel locomotives like these. In the case of the ones on the nose in front of the windshield, all it takes is brass wire and drilled holes.
Lionel has addressed the obvious horrid paint colors (florescent orange, yellow with silver paint) so I thank them for owning the problem.
That being well hashed out on another thread, I must commend Lionel for getting the other ROAD SPECIFIC DETAILS I pointed out earlier in this thread correct for the NYO&W F3's.
I am VERY PLEASED Lionel made the extra effort to include the hand railing on the nose and the "chicken wire" where appropriate. THANK YOU LIONEL FOR HEARING OUR PLEA!
I have not heard back from all my customers regarding their options of repainting/replacing the cabs, but because Lionel got the ROAD SPECIFIC DETAILS correct, I plan to have my personal set done.
I am going to request while they are repainting/replacing the shells, they also correct the number board inserts by taking out the "A" designation. Since it should be rather simple thing for Lionel to do, I suggest others that purchased the NYO&W locomotives request it as well.
falconservice posted:O scale is bigger and the detail must be better.
Now always true.
JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:
I would like to see the screened detail between the porthole windows and hand railings applied on the nose in front of the windshield and wherever appropriate. I'd like the proper colors chosen to paint the model. These road specific details and many more are easily found in printed material online and in books. As a member of the O&W Railway Historical Society, I'm sure society would be willing to help Lionel with obtaining these road specific details such as correct color samples and much more.
Whatever help I can be to Lionel to make them right, I am willing and offer my assistance to them. In the end, we all hope the finished models make many people very happy.
Need to know when these images were taken compared to the as delivered date. I usually prefer as built models,
BobbyD posted:JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:
I would like to see the screened detail between the porthole windows and hand railings applied on the nose in front of the windshield and wherever appropriate. I'd like the proper colors chosen to paint the model. These road specific details and many more are easily found in printed material online and in books. As a member of the O&W Railway Historical Society, I'm sure society would be willing to help Lionel with obtaining these road specific details such as correct color samples and much more.
Whatever help I can be to Lionel to make them right, I am willing and offer my assistance to them. In the end, we all hope the finished models make many people very happy.
Need to know when these images were taken compared to the as delivered date. I usually prefer as built models,
They look pretty much "as built" to me. (With the exception of the footboards on the 501.)
The NYO&W F3 locomotives were built in 1948, the last year of F3 production. Since the NYO&W folded in 1957, I don't think it had the time or resources to get very "creative."
Rusty
J Daddy posted:Interesting. Not one reply on this post pointed out a road specific item on the NY&O F3 's. I now feel dumber for reading it.
Are you referring to what the modeling community refers to as a Phase II (Late) F3 that was roughly built roughly between December of 1947 through March of 1948? Off course the unique grab bar arrangement is cool too. Not having researched the "Old and Weary" F3 this is the first time I saw that. Specific grab bar locations are fairly easy to pick up on a manufacturing run.
Trying to get an F3 correct is an interesting chore as it was a transition model for EMD and even the whole concept of five phases of construction designs is a misnomer as EMD never distinguished phases. As cataloged the so called F2-F5 models are all F3s. That is where having photos that are dated really help on research for what is the appropriate details for the time period being modeled and on what road numbers have the same details. Some look down upon this level of "rivet counting". I find it extremely interesting in that is it a form of archeology. The early cab units can be difficult as a lot of the best information is often found in specific books that have been long out of print.
falconservice posted:The 3rd Rail DM&IR SD9 that I got is lacking the diagonal stripes along the sill and the circular logos on the real SD9s were made out of reflective 3M Scotchlite. I will have to have somebody make some correct reflective decals using a version of 3M Scotchlite.
Andrew
That is my mistake. I'm willing to own up to my work and research. In hindsight wow, how obvious! However at the time we were tracking something around 75 different data points in terms of combination of details, paint schemes, SD7s vs. SD9s all on a tight factory imposed deadline. You have to keep the factory busy to keep it open. This was a few years back, but there were at least 25 different drawings to review for just what most would observe as two locomotive types. Even then some compromises had to be made in a few areas because every design modification involves more cost.
Not excusing the error, but at the end of the day, these projects are done by humans who are never 100% correct.
To address the original thread, I don't comment normally on other manufacturer's work or research. I don't know how they operate and can't speak intelligently on why certain decisions are made or not made. I do know regardless of manufacturer, it is hard to announce a project and get the exact model being built represented through the catalog art. There is no point in doing the R&D part of a newly tooled project if it's announced and it doesn't get the reservations to make it viable.
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