A word about BTO (Built to order)

Thanks for this excellent report, Charlie. You really drive home the point that dealing with a reputable dealer is very important to this whole BTO process. Glad you have had great success with the number you ordered.

Thank you for all you do for the Forum members. 

And Charlie;

Thanks for the proof of my expectations.

Folks need to be reminded, Dealers order what they expect to sell in a reasonably fast time, they cannot afford to tie up capitol on slow selling items for months or years these days.

Thus they did not buy large numbers of these engines, so they will be in short supply rapidly.

I would expect polar express stuff to be hot this time of year regardless of BTO.  I never preorder anything , you can't trust the manufacturers to produce the item as advertised so I must see and hear it first! that's just me.  Even though the berks have been out a week or so, I just picked one up today at Nicholas smith no problem and I looked at all the big 3 dealers for pricing and all have them in stock.  And I picked up the NKP, which is probably one of the popular ones. My dealer always calls me when they come in so I can check it out in person and buy one if I like it.  So I agree a good relationship is key, but any savvy dealer should order extra for hot items.  How can you make money if you have nothing to sell.  So between all the dealers any BTO item should be easy to get as long as you don't wait forever.  Just out of curiosity I plan to watch all the dealers sites and see how long the NKP is still available and really how fast these sell out.  Oh and if somehow I miss out one of these BTO, I have so many engines now , I think I'll survive Haha.  Good communication with your LHS is key.  

Am I wrong or didn't the berks just arrived this past week?

The Cab Forwards were...sort of. They were the test runs. So we were to,d. 

The Berks came in early this week. I received mine from Charlie on Wed. (thanks Charlie)

I will venture to guess that by end of next week the more desirable Berks will be very hard to find. 

~Bill

I appreciate This Thread, and this Dealer for their Loyalty, Honesty, and information they provide to us Forum Members. I live 100 miles away from my dealer, and although he is a small dealer, in relationship to You folks,  Charles Ro, And others, this dealer takes good care of our needs. We actually never know what our price will be, but, it's always close to the advertised early order prices. We need to support our local Hobby Shops, or, they will not be here.  I know it's very hard for any Dealer to know how many and what to buy. Our market today is Global, and our dealers are Local. Therefore, if I were a Dealer, Large or Small, I would have to Advertise in the Hobby Magazines. It's the Internet Age, The World is at our Fingertips. Thanks for Your Information.

Actually, I've noticed for a couple of days now that Charlie Ro no longer lists the black PE Berk 6-11451 on their website, which usually means they're no longer accepting orders/purchases for that model.  I think they're still expecting the remainder of their shipment to come in any day now, but those might already be spoken for via pre-order.  Definitely worth calling to be sure.

David

Somewhere on this forum there's a post that says the Daylight cab forwards are expected to reach dealers on 10 December and that indeed is the expected date of arrival shown on Ro's website. Anybody have an idea whether this date is likely to stand up - including for other main dealers?

Not sure what is new here.  Let's see:  do business with a reputable dealer and if you don't order you may not get one.  This is a pretty seasoned group so I am not sure who here would be surprised by any of this.

I will be happier with build to order when Lionel can actually have a sense of when the product will come in.  Until then, BTO is a commercially reasonable undertaking from the perspective of the manufacturers and the dealers but it is not to the customer's advantage in any sense:  the customer in many instances does not get to see the product until it is paid and delivered and the customer will have little idea when the product will arrive other than to check Lionel's website from time to time and watch the delivery get pushed back repeatedly (speaking from personal experience).  It is what it is -- customers may have to reasonably learn to accept this given the size of the hobby and the size of the firms involved -- and is minor stuff in the big scheme of things but is generally inconsistent with how purchasers of expensive specialty products are treated in other areas of the market.  That is a long way of saying I am not sure that I would remind my customers of their impotence in this area.

Well a few days ago, I noticed Charlie Ro's website now indicates they expect to see those Cab Forwards on 12/23.  Sounds like a very busy December!

David

I agree on all counts but would add this:

Not that I'm obsessing over the latest run of Lionel cab forwards, and in particular the Daylight themed version, but at least in this instance a few months back Lionel produced pictures and a video of a production sample. From that it was relatively easy to see AND hear what you'd be getting (including something of an issue over the steam whistle going off when the air horn is activated, which I am resigned to Lionel leaving as it is). This of course is a model based on earlier and very nicely done tooling so it's really a Legacy update rather than a new model.

Manufacturers risk alienating the part of their customer base that goes in for these higher end products if they come out of the box broken or with operating issues but that's a QC matter rather than a consequence of the BTO policy. I'd rather that a manufacturer had a disclosed policy of BTO instead of the unofficial one MTH a has operated for years and the thing that most annoys me is the constantly moving "goalposts" of shipping dates.

P.S. Right after writing this I saw R.M.'s preceding post about the arrival date of the Daylights getting pushed back yet again. Naturally I am p*ssed off to find my X-mas centerpiece probably won't be in time but this is not the result of BTO - it must be high demand or manufacturing issues.

The way I see it,  the only good thing about BTO is how in time it may help curtail current rapid depreciation. 

It may have come too late to slow declining interest brought about by rising prices and repetitive overproduction. 

"3.  I want my money earning interest in my bank not the LHS, especially if it is a year or more."

I work with a reputable dealer that I know and trust. I pay for the item when it is shipped and usually get the item the next day. I have no issues ordering a BTO product because of one word, "trust".

Thank you, Charlie.

We are one of many that doesn't require a down payment.... I have been in the hobby a long time and I have never paid a deposit for a pre-order. Please call and reserve one if there's something in the catalog that you'd like..... We are not big enough to receive product directly from Lionel, and all three distributors we have a relationship with were sold out of all of the Berks by the end of day Friday.

Mrs Muffin commented as we were fielding all of these requests that the Big Boy will be a big mess if folks don't have one on order.

We had a customer here Friday afternoon trying to decide if he wanted an NKP, and he came back in Sat to get one. By then, the extras were all gone.  

I have no problem with BTO.  I wonder if Lionel or these dealers are second guessing how many they made/ordered of these Berks.  It seems like there are still a lot of people that are going to miss out.  I guess they can always find someone to buy them from...as long as they can afford and are willing to pay the price.

I also have no problem with BTO and think it is a very sound policy for Lionel and MTH (as well as 3rd Rail) to follow with their more high-end offerings.  

I accept that if I don't pre-order I may not get one, and that if I don't jump right on buying one the day they are released, I definitely won't get one in most cases. I would not be surprised if Lionel erred on the side of fewer rather than more on the Berks to make a point.  I have mine, both this most recent and the earlier, smaller ATSF 4199 Legacy Berk, so I am pleased with it so far.

RickO, are you saying that it is a myth that Lionel orders extra locos to part out?

Ron

I've pre-ordered plenty of previous product before BTO was the newest "buzz" acronym, and they didn't get made (mostly accessories over the last several years).  (old buzz words - "Allocated", anyone?)

Yet another factor.  Not all problems (specifically paint/decorative defects) are "fixable" with parts provided by Lionel.  An exchange is often the only solution there.  But an exchange is not likely because everything was "BTO".

-Dave

RickO said:  I was always under the impression Lionel ordered X amount of locomotives to "part out"

A few years ago when I attended a Lionel "Open House" in Canfield, Ohio; I observed a Lionel employee doing exactly that - parting out diesel locomotives and cataloging each item and putting that item into a small plastic bag with part number label on it.  I was told that the logic behind this extreme exercise was because the folks in China could not "get it right" when replacement parts were ordered. So, it is not a myth...

Best,

Dave

Let's cut through all the rhetoric and mumbo jumbo.

As a consumer, purchasing any item before getting a chance to inspect it is foolish, financially irresponsible, asking to be disappointed, etc.

The only way BTO will work is when consumers are not required to make a down payment and have the right of refusal when a product does arrive.  This is the way some dealers have executed the BTO program.  I would not deal with one who acted in any other manner.

As the consumer and end user of the product, I expect to bear little, if any, financial risk on such an item.  I am, after all, the person shelling out the $$$$ for an item....not a person making money anywhere along the distribution line.  As such, my (personal) risk tolerance on the matter is essentially zero.

I am hoping that this BTO thing is just an exercise to figure out what the true demand is for products.  Maybe after a year or two of this they will have enough trend patterns so that they can get rid of BTO and just order as normal and be confident that they didn't over produce.

Or maybe the BTO thing is a way for them to spur demand for products.  By keeping them scarce, people will be lining up at the door a few years later when the product is made again.  Look at how many people bought the scale PE Berks this year after missing out on them during the last run.

Lionel has shipped their first BTO engines (Yes, I know the Cab Forward came out but they are not done shipping all of them) the Berkshire. We just sold out yesterday of all our extra "Gold" versions and "Polar Express" and we don't have many more of the others. We were "swamped" in the last couple of days from customers looking for them. It seems either they waited to see what it would be like and guess what, they like it. Or they ordered it from someone who didn't have a "firm" order with their distrubutor.

WOW! So No wonder why last Wednesday when I called in to submit my payment of my BTO to your store, I was questioned on the phone about the outstanding order. I take it some people were trying to get their hands on the black P.E. loco.

NOw I have to check to loco for the bearing issue.

These berkshires are not "new tooling". There are still bushings available for the previous run berks over the years which are the same.

I can't see Lionel issuing refunds over a plastic bushing, worst case they could have some more made if for some reason they completely ran out.

Having said that, I'd bet these bushings are the same for many different locomotives other than the berkshire.

Regarding this problem: folks are calling vs. emailing. They get the "customer service lady" on the phone and get the "scare" of," we don't have any parts for these yet because they're too new."

The "customer service lady" on the phone is not aware that Lionel had had multiple runs of these berkshires over several years and the plastic bushings are likely all the same for each release.

Email  Lionel at the "service/ repair question" link: http://www.lionel.com/ContactUs/

I was just outside and the sky is still firmly in the up position. 

Wow- a rather sweeping statement.  I guess I am "foolish and financially irresponsible" in your eyes.    A person has to exercise reasonable prudence and more than a modicum of thought when ordering sight-unseen, but it is often necessary to get what you want. I take the reputation of the manufacturer and their past performance into account when I do. So I have about forty locos I have ordered that way from Lionel, MTH and 3rd Rail, and I have never been seriously disappointed.  I have never seen 3rd Rail's Train of Tomorrow but when it arrives in a couple of weeks I know I will love it, and I definately was not going to take the chance on missing out on that. 

Its not just trains, either.  I  have have ordered three cars that way - models announced and to be made in very limited numbers and sold out before production even begins: the only way to get one is to order and put down money ahead of time.  Again, the reputation of the manufacturers.  I was never disappointed although I have been surprised.  The most recent car arrived and had all manner of exotic stuff on it, ceramic brake discs, carbon fiber all over, etc., but I couldn't find the cruise control although it had been listed in the original description.  When I e-mailed the manufacturer I got the following response, "Cruise control was not fitted to these six cars.  They are pure sports/track cars and as such cruise control is not needed for their purpose."  I'm still very pleased with the car and would not have it had I not pre-ordered and with a deposit.

I think it all boils down to if you trust the manufacturer.

I have zero problems with "BTO" items. If money is an issue, don't buy it.

Should the item not be made, use the deposit for something else you like.

Brent

It's not what I said at all actually.  I said BTO is reasonable from the perspective of the dealers and firms involved and it is likely something the customer will have to learn to accept.  I've accepted it.  These aren't big firms and the hobby is aging / dwindling -- any stroll through York confirms this.  That being said, even after the customer assumes 100% of the "risk" in the transaction (although that might be too strong a word -- it's more a question of service), there is still no sense of when the product will be reliably delivered.  In other words and stated differently, I accept the need for BTO and I've left a deposit and promised to pay in full on delivery and even then I can't get a reliable delivery date?  Really?

My issue or question isn't with BTO.  It's with the rationale of the original poster's statement.  The point made is either patently obvious to anyone in the hobby with any activity between their two ears or self serving.  And, to boot, it's probably not smart to remind your customers of BTO when even after going along with it they still cannot get the product ordered.

Again, all small stuff in the big scheme of things.  I just found the original post interesting.  That's all.  No argument intended with Lionel or MTH (other that to make the side point state that as a loyal customer of both firms I would like them to work on addressing timely delivery).

They maybe BTO but if it's defective you don't have to keep it. Return it for a refund.