Adding Flanged Wheels

Probably in error but I have always thought the blind wheels were put on to allow for a tighter turning radius. If your radii is large then may not be an issue.

@Krieglok posted:

I have a MTH RSD5 that has three axle trucks. One set of wheels on each truck is flangeless or “blind”.

I am wondering, would there would be any drawbacks to adding a flanged set of wheels to each truck ?

I figure it would likely reduce the engine’s designed flexibility going around tight curves and small switches, but my future track plans, will have fairly broad curves and long switches.

Any opinions or experiences?

Tom

Which axle is flangless? If it is the center probably not worth it. If the end one it would reduce the massive overhang on curves though maybe increase the minimum radius.

The set of wheels on both trucks, closest to the fuel tank are blind. The way the truck pivots, the blind axle has a tendency to slew off to one side or the other. I don’t mind a reduction in radius capabilities, as the truck looks derailed with the blind axle hanging over the side of the rail at this point…

Tom

Yeah it does, Lionel did that on FM's and PA's. Never understood why.

Come on over to 2-rail.  We flange almost everything, but our flanges are smaller and our radii are huge.

Seriously, you are looking at a major pressing operation - I do it all the time, but the Chinese use an interference press fit, and getting wheels on and off axles requires an arbor press and fixtures to support the structure.  It can be done with a big hammer, but once in a while you miss . . .

This is why I refuse to buy the RailKing six axle diesel locomotives.  What really grinds my gears are the Premier ones that have this too! Alco PA, DL-109, EMD, E6/7/8, etc.

I actually had a set of PAs and I came really close to converting them.  I did a proof of concept with some wheels from another Williams set, and while it looked good, the fact that the axle holes in the truck are oval allowed the them to derail too easily.

The next step in my plan after doing some research was to add some finger springs to the truck to keep the wheelset planted on the rails.  The challenge there is that by doing that, some weight is transferred from the geared drive wheels to the “dummy” wheels.

After that I started to work on a bushing that would convert the oval hole into a circular one.  In the end I said “to heck with it” and just sold them.

The Lionel PAs and EMD E-units are superior in this regard.

Weaver did the three axle truck, and used it on several models. some had the flange-less wheel set in the middle, others had the flange-less set to the front/rear of the unit.  The front/rear configuration made the 3 axle truck operate like a two axle truck, that could be used on smaller curves.  There was a problem with metal flange-less wheels shorting on small curves. Some of the Weaver offerings had plastic flange-less wheels to eliminate the problem.   

I have one RailKing diesel engine that the flange-less wheels are on the truck end closest to the fuel tank.  Not a fan of this but this engine is special to me so I'll keep it.  If I buy any other engines that have three axle trucks, the flange-less wheels must be on the center axle.  I would say adding flanged wheels probably would lead to more derails.

@BobbyD posted:

Yeah it does, Lionel did that on FM's and PA's. Never understood why.

So those long locos could take sharper curves like 054.

Depending on the specific model, you may find that some of the flangeless wheels "float" in larger holes than the flanged wheels.  That will complicate the operation.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Depending on the specific model, you may find that some of the flangeless wheels "float" in larger holes than the flanged wheels.  That will complicate the operation.

The Lionel PA and FM trucks do that John and has stymied my conversion so far.

Here's a shot of the RailKing C628 truck with the floating wheels, apparently they do this as well.  Note the generous slop round the axle...

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

So those long locos could take sharper curves like 054.

They could have used a blind center wheel instead.

By installing the blind wheel at the end of the 6 wheel truck made it look ridiculous on curves with the ungainly truck overhang.

@rplst8 posted:

The Lionel PAs and EMD E-units are superior in this regard.

The Lionel TMCC Santa Fe Alco PA's from 2003 have the floppy blind inner axle.

@Krieglok posted:

The set of wheels on both trucks, closest to the fuel tank are blind. The way the truck pivots, the blind axle has a tendency to slew off to one side or the other. I don’t mind a reduction in radius capabilities, as the truck looks derailed with the blind axle hanging over the side of the rail at this point…

Tom

Tom,

You said you plan to go to wider curves eventually. So if it’s just the cosmetic problem, you’re concerned about remember that the inner axle won’t swing away from the rails as much on wider radius curves. Maybe then the blind wheels won’t be as much of a concern. That depends on how big the curves are but also the wheel base length  and even axle configuration  If your Alco has the same configuration as the one in Mike’s picture you might still have a lot of swing and the associated problem of the blind wheels dropping of the rails (that’s where the axle slop John mentions comes into play).  I have that problem with a dummy Railking Scale C30-7. It doesn’t derail but it bangs and klunks coming out of curves as the blind wheels are forced back on the rail. Here it is as I parked it on an 090 curve:

On the other hand, this powered FP45 smoothly handles curves down to 072. (This is on 081):

It has a longer wheelbase and equi-distant axles. Notice the wheels don’t swing off 081 curves. So you might wait and see what happens on the bigger curves you’re planning.

And all that said, I dislike this older truck design and tolerate it in these engines only because they fit my modeling needs and there’s presently no alternatives readily available. Indeed the trucks on these are also mounted too far inboard. That’s another problem.

RM

Thank you guys, for all the excellent opinions and information.

I have a spare set of Alco 3 axle trucks. I am thinking I will do the axle swap on one of them and see how it performs on various curves and turnouts.

I don’t want to jump into axle swapping on the actual engine in question, taking into the consideration, the discussions presented here.

Again, thanks to all for the discussion. Any further discussion will still be appreciated, of course!

Tom

How about the center wheels on the 2-6-4, or the 2-8-4 s ? Anyone done them?

I had a number of choices for a New Haven PA. I decided on 3rd rails. The things that sold me was the extra pilot to mount a Kadee and the fact that all wheels are flanged. I do run 072 curves but so do most other  operators buying passenger diesels. I have 3 MTH DL109’s which I love the looks of. But that blind wheel hanging over the rails always bugged me.