Alco PA

The CZ never ran on Santa Fe?

https://youtu.be/SwiZZepuiwk

Here is a video of the F7's that 3rd rail released recently (pulling the El Cap 1st run). I would strongly recommend 3rd rail and GGD products to everyone. They are simply gorgeous models and very strong pullers! However, if you want to pull the CZ with them you should get them in the DRG Silver Aspen scheme. It was a very unique looking paint scheme on PA's which actually pulled the CZ (I'm assuming you realize the the SF engines aren't prototypical for the CZ). Anyway, if you buy from Scott you will be very happy with your purchase. I have 5 PA's on order, including an ABA set in the Silver Aspen to pull my atlas GSC CZ.

Santa Fe ALCO PA's are beautiful engines.  However, they would Not Look Good on the point of ANY Zephyr!!!

PJB, we know Scott Mann to be an honorable manufacturer who listens to his customers, and therefore

• the upcoming Alco PA/PB units will be well-detailed.
• they will run smoothly, powered by one large horizontal motor per unit.

If you want to head the California Zephyr set, Lionel did make this Denver & Rio Grande version of the ALCO PA in 1992, item no. 6-18107.

It's not as detailed as the new models, and lacks the Legacy control, but these ABA combinations can be found for very reasonable money (I got mine for $300), have heavy duty Pittman motors (versus the slightly less robust Canon motors on the 3rd Rail engines), and can easily upgraded to ElectricRR Cruise (same electronics inside the 3rd Rail engines) for TMCC operation and new RailSounds. In the end, you'll get an ABA set with TMCC and RailSounds for a little over $500.

However, if you want the specific little details, you should probably stick with the 3rd Rail models, particularly any of the three D&RG models if you want to be prototypically correct with your consist. 3rd Rail is in many cases worth the price.

aterry11 posted:

The CZ never ran on Santa Fe?

Nope. 

But it did detour on the SP occasionally, with WP F's and an SP pilot locomotive.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

aterry11 posted:

The CZ never ran on Santa Fe?

Nope. 

But it did detour on the SP occasionally, with WP F's and an SP pilot locomotive.

Rusty

While I do appreciate the insight on paint schemes, this is intended only to get answers on forumites' experience with the    product, not whether a 3-rail make-believe little condensed world would look, somehow, more non-real by a plastic locomotive, with one paint job versus another paint job, pulling some plastic cars. 

Thanks for all the opinions on the product. Given all the insight on what locomotives pulled the real CZ, I'll take another look at paint jobs.

What I was really looking for were opinions on quality and features. It seems it's become commonplace, at least with Lionel, to buy a new engine and then immediately need an RA number to return it for repairs. I'm thinking there must be a better option - but I didn't want to sacrifice features (do 3rd Rail diesels come with smoke?) and spend basically 2x Lionel price just to have the same experience. Sounds like 3rd Rail is definitely a cut above.  

The few 3rd Rail items I own are great.  A PA should be the same.

Scott continues to satisfy his customers.  Shani, continues to take  my money.  If you are not satisfied with the product it is returnable with out a fuss.

As for DRGW  PA's I am partial to the little known BumbleBee scheme which lets you also model the Exposition Flyer.  I am torn because I want the Rock Island Rocket up coming and the PA's too.

SantaFeJim posted:

Santa Fe Alcohol PA's are beautiful engines.  However, they would Not Look Good on the point of ANY Zephyr!!!

 

 just to clarify:  Are you saying the aesthetics are wrong?  If so, the SF is mostly silver, so I don't see a problem.  Or, are you saying it won't look right because it isn't prototypical?  Thanks. 

aterry11 posted:

Scott continues to satisfy his customers.  Shani, continues to take  my money.  If you are not satisfied with the product it is returnable with out a fuss.

As for DRGW  PA's I am partial to the little known BumbleBee scheme which lets you also model the Exposition Flyer.  I am torn because I want the Rock Island Rocket up coming and the PA's too.

Well, being I have some roots from the Old South, a Rock Island anything is a no-brainer for me ....that's a "never." 

A very inexpensive alternative to anyone budget minded is to pick up some of Lionel's Santa Fe's  #2000  from about 1996. These have TMCC and early Railsounds in the B units along with a good horn and bell in the powered A units. They actually sound great  together. Adding a second A unit would give terrific pulling power too.

You should be able to find the ABA units for well under $500 - perhaps less than $400 for 2 powered units and three sound units.  Good looking models too.

aterry11 posted:

Scott continues to satisfy his customers.  Shani, continues to take  my money.  If you are not satisfied with the product it is returnable with out a fuss.

As for DRGW  PA's I am partial to the little known BumbleBee scheme which lets you also model the Exposition Flyer.  I am torn because I want the Rock Island Rocket up coming and the PA's too.

You and me both, however Scott said the bumblebee will not happen on the first run. If there is a second one he will include it. I'm excited about the legendary TA too, simply cannot wait. 

"more non-real by a plastic locomotive" 

Aren't the 3rd Rail PA's plastic, if I catch the drift of your comment?

===================

"What I was really looking for were opinions on quality and features. It seems it's become commonplace, at least with Lionel, to buy a new engine and then immediately need an RA number to return it for repairs."

OK, if that's what you want. First, what percentage of Lionel's pieces are actually faulty and get returned for repair? Do you have this figure at hand? (I have no importer's dog in this fight, BTW.) Secondly, I have several 3rd Rail locos - all steam except for the NYC T-3 electric - and they have been hit-and-miss on their construction and operation quality. Some have been fine, others (I've mentioned this before here) have had pieces fall off when removed from the box. These were new from 3rd Rail. My SP MT-4 4-8-2 has a flywheel that likes to come loose on the shaft - I have to tighten it every so often.

I will buy 3rd rail under certain circumstances - and I even have a NYC R-2 on order (if ever...) right now because no one else will make some of this stuff - but I always have trepidation when I do. 

Many brag on 3rd rail, and I am sure that their stories are accurate, but so is mine. Given a choice between a 3rd rail product and one produced by Lionel or MTH of the same/similar prototype, I would choose L or M, especially pre-Legacy TMCC and MTH PS-1 (easily upgraded to ERR electronics).

You asked.

I recall one winter when both the Feather River Canyon and Donner pass were closed due to weather related problems.   The west bound Zephyr was detoured south from SLC to Barstow then back north to Oakland. As I recall the trip from Barstow to Stockton was on the Santa Fe. The train was about 24 hours late. As for Third Rail locos, I have several. I believe they use Lionel electronics.  They run just like a Lionel.  The big difference is the detail is fragile and care in handling is required. 

D500 posted:

"more non-real by a plastic locomotive" 

Aren't the 3rd Rail PA's plastic, if I catch the drift of your comment?

Yes - I was saying that all three companies (L, M and 3rdRail) make plastic models - but that wasn't the point of my comment.  It was that I didn't want this thread to turn into a war about how prototypical or unprototypical a SantaFe paint scheme would be pulling my CZ cars. Because at the end of the day, a plastic locomotive pulling a 12-car plastic consist a scale 1 mile or so, on 3-rail, hi-rail tracks is all very far from realistic or prototypical.   This thread was started PURELY for opinions on the quality of the product.      

===================

"What I was really looking for were opinions on quality and features. It seems it's become commonplace, at least with Lionel, to buy a new engine and then immediately need an RA number to return it for repairs."

OK, if that's what you want. First, what percentage of Lionel's pieces are actually faulty and get returned forrepair? Do you have this figure at hand? (I have no importer's dog in this fight, BTW.) Secondly, I have several 3rd Rail locos - all steam except for the NYC T-3 electric - and they have been hit-and-miss on their construction and operation quality. Some have been fine, others (I've mentioned this before here) have had pieces fall off when removed from the box. These were new from 3rd Rail. My SP MT-4 4-8-2 has a flywheel that likes to come loose on the shaft - I have to tighten it every so often.

I will buy 3rd rail under certain circumstances - and I even have a NYC R-2 on order (if ever...) right now because no one else will make some of this stuff - but I always have trepidation when I do. 

Many brag on 3rd rail, and I am sure that their stories are accurate, but so is mine. Given a choice between a 3rd rail product and one produced by Lionel or MTH of the same/similar prototype, I would choose L or M, especially pre-Legacy TMCC and MTH PS-1 (easily upgraded to ERR electronics).

You asked.

I did ask - and thanks for sharing your opinion - I appreciate it.

PJB posted:

It was that I didn't want this thread to turn into a war about how prototypical or unprototypical a SantaFe paint scheme would be pulling my CZ cars. Because at the end of the day, a plastic locomotive pulling a 12-car plastic consist a scale 1 mile or so, on 3-rail, hi-rail tracks is all very far from realistic or prototypical.   This thread was started PURELY for opinions on the quality of the product.  

It seems it's become commonplace, at least with Lionel, to buy a new engine and then immediately need an RA number to return it for repairs."

This isn't a war at all, unless somehow you are imagining it. People are just telling you that putting Santa Fe Warbonnets with CZ cars never happened. The Santa Fe had nothing to do with the California Z. Not sure why you didn't just get silver Santa Fe passenger cars to pull behind Warbonnets instead of CZ cars, but whatever. Point is, if you want to mix and match fantasy schemes, it's your railroad - you can do whatever you want. 

Also, if your idea of O gauge is just plastic toys pulling plastic toys which aren't very real, then I don't know why you would spend the considerable money required to purchase highly detailed 3rd Rail engines. Just get some pre-owned Warbonnets by MTH or Lionel in the secondary market. They'll be fine. As far as problems with engines, don't forget that, like the evening news, it's usually only things with problems that you hear about. The vast majority work just fine. One other thing to note - if you're planning to pull a number of those Atlas CZ cars, you're probably going to need at least two powered engines.

breezinup posted:

PJB posted:

It was that I didn't want this thread to turn into a war about how prototypical or unprototypical a SantaFe paint scheme would be pulling my CZ cars. Because at the end of the day, a plastic locomotive pulling a 12-car plastic consist a scale 1 mile or so, on 3-rail, hi-rail tracks is all very far from realistic or prototypical.   This thread was started PURELY for opinions on the quality of the product.  

It seems it's become commonplace, at least with Lionel, to buy a new engine and then immediately need an RA number to return it for repairs."

This isn't a war at all, unless somehow you are imagining it. People are just telling you that putting Santa Fe Warbonnets with CZ cars never happened. The Santa Fe had nothing to do with the California Z. Not sure why you didn't just get silver Santa Fe passenger cars to pull behind Warbonnets instead of CZ cars, but whatever. Point is, if you want to mix and match fantasy schemes, it's your railroad - you can do whatever you want. 

Also, if your idea of O gauge is just plastic toys pulling plastic toys which aren't very real, then I don't know why you would spend the considerable money required to purchase highly detailed 3rd Rail engines. Just get some pre-owned Warbonnets by MTH or Lionel in the secondary market. They'll be fine. As far as problems with engines, don't forget that, like the evening news, it's usually only things with problems that you hear about. The vast majority work just fine. One other thing to note - if you're planning to pull a number of those Atlas CZ cars, you're probably going to need at least two powered engines.

Who said there was a war?  If you had actually read my post and not just fixated on the words, you'd see that I said, in very simple words, that I didn't want to end up detouring into a discussion on realism (which seems to happen a lot on this forum) - my query was PURELY about quality.  I never asked for opinions on mixing/matching paint schemes.  

Why don't I go out and buy MTH or Lionel?  I do. I own most Vision engines, some Legacy and Premier too.  Is there some reason you feel I can't also explore a potentially higher quality offering?  Or maybe I just like the look of more life-like trains but don't care all that much about what locomotive pulled what train 65 years ago - especially when I already have Big Boys and Mohawks traversing the same rails, through our New York cityscape and Western mountain region?         

And, newsflash - they are plastic toys (or die cast or brass or whatever).  The fact that they are like little Swiss watches in terms of precision, craftsmanship and quality, and take a lot of engineering genius to go from 1:1 to 1:48 doesn't change that fact.  And, it doesn't change the fact that I am fascinated by the mechanics and details of these things...

Peter

Mikado 4501 posted:

If you want to head the California Zephyr set, Lionel did make this Denver & Rio Grande version of the ALCO PA in 1992, item no. 6-18107.

It's not as detailed as the new models, and lacks the Legacy control, but these ABA combinations can be found for very reasonable money (I got mine for $300), have heavy duty Pittman motors (versus the slightly less robust Canon motors on the 3rd Rail engines), and can easily upgraded to ElectricRR Cruise (same electronics inside the 3rd Rail engines) for TMCC operation and new RailSounds. In the end, you'll get an ABA set with TMCC and RailSounds for a little over $500.

However, if you want the specific little details, you should probably stick with the 3rd Rail models, particularly any of the three D&RG models if you want to be prototypically correct with your consist. 3rd Rail is in many cases worth the price.

Mikado 4501 - Thanks for all the info.  Sounds like a great deal, all things considered.  Is ERR something you install yourself or is it something ERR (or someone else) installs for you?

Question??  The Grand Canyon RR used FPA Alco's, what is the difference between FPA's and these PA models??

Alco "FPA" units were also named "FA" units and were designed for Freight service, having only two axle trucks. The "FPA" version was again a 4-axle units, like an EMD FP7A, designed for passenger service. The Alco "PA" units were designed for passenger service ONLY and had three axle trucks. 

Mike CT posted:

Question??  The Grand Canyon RR used FPA Alco's, what is the difference between FPA's and these PA models??

 

FPAs were passenger-equipped FAs (4-axle) diesels.

PJB, it can be done either way.

I do all of my ERR upgrades by myself, but I recommend having proper tools like wire cutters, an anti-static mat, jeweler's screwdrivers, a drill, etc. to do it. If you don't have those or don't feel ready to do it yourself, there are plenty of people (like myself) who can be asked to do it for a modest installation fee.

In some cases, you can keep the original lighting installations, but other times you might need to buy some new ones. That 1992 Lionel PA, fortunately, has a circuit board that can run the lighting regardless of what reverse unit/command board is inside.

The FPA locomotive is 1800 h.p., is 54' long and rides on 4 wheel trucks.  GCRy's FPA's are ex-Canadian National/VIA FPA-4's.

The PA locomotive is 2000 h.p., is 65'8" long and rides on 6 wheel trucks.

Rusty

Hot Water posted:

Alco "FPA" (sic) units were more correctly named "FA" units and were designed for Freight service, having only two axle trucks. The Alco "PA" units were designed for passenger service and had had three axle trucks. 

You are right, I have pictures of the (4 axles)   Thanks, Mike CT

That would also explain the interesting power car that the Grand Canyon RR had fabricated.  Power car allowed heat and Air condition, even though the FPA's were not equipped for passenger cars.

That too, is an ex CN/VIA steam generator car, converted to H.E.P.

The ex-CN FPA's originally had steam generators, hence the "P" designation.  They were withdrawn from service before VIA converted to H.E.P.

Rusty

Mike CT posted:

That would also explain the interesting power car that the Grand Canyon RR had fabricated.  Power car allowed heat and Air condition, even though the FPA's were not equipped for passenger cars. 

Well, remember that when the FPA and FP7A units were manufactured, passenger equipment was "powered" by steam, and NOT the 480 volt 3 phase HEP of todays equipment, Thus, the FPA, PA, E and FP7A units, for example, all had steam generators. For electrical power, the passenger cars each had large banks of batteries with axle generators for battery charging. Air Conditioning units were power by propane burning "ice engines", except for the Santa Fe, who used steam power refrigeration units for their air conditioning.

PJB posted:

Mikado 4501 posted:

If you want to head the California Zephyr set, Lionel did make this Denver & Rio Grande version of the ALCO PA in 1992, item no. 6-18107.

It's not as detailed as the new models, and lacks the Legacy control, but these ABA combinations can be found for very reasonable money (I got mine for $300), have heavy duty Pittman motors (versus the slightly less robust Canon motors on the 3rd Rail engines), and can easily upgraded to ElectricRR Cruise (same electronics inside the 3rd Rail engines) for TMCC operation and new RailSounds. In the end, you'll get an ABA set with TMCC and RailSounds for a little over $500.

However, if you want the specific little details, you should probably stick with the 3rd Rail models, particularly any of the three D&RG models if you want to be prototypically correct with your consist. 3rd Rail is in many cases worth the price.

Mikado 4501 - Thanks for all the info.  Sounds like a great deal, all things considered.  Is ERR something you install yourself or is it something ERR (or someone else) installs for you?

One other thing about this engine and the early Eire Lackawana is they were made by Samhongsa vs the later ones made by Lionel. They are much better detailed and came with a pair of large motors. Not sure they were Pittmans, I am thinking Mabuchi 550s or 555s. Still very strong pullers to go with their good looks. I don't own either but have worked on them. Too bad the later NYC version is not like these.

Pete

Pete,

I'm leaning that they were Pittman type, but I don't have mine around to open now to be 100% sure. I do know Lionel just started using them during this time - the first on the Southern Mikado, as well as on the Western Maryland Shay. Since Mike Wolf was contracted to make those 3, it would make sense if they all had the same motor type - all the subsequent MTH engines in the mid 90's onward, as far as I know, came with Pittman motors.

Mikado 4501 posted:

Pete,

I'm leaning that they were Pittman type, but I don't have mine around to open now to be 100% sure. I do know Lionel just started using them during this time - the first on the Southern Mikado, as well as on the Western Maryland Shay. Since Mike Wolf was contracted to make those 3, it would make sense if they all had the same motor type - all the subsequent MTH engines in the mid 90's onward, as far as I know, came with Pittman motors.

Mikado, please contact me via email I have the Lionel 6-18107 set & wanted to discuss options on upgrade.