And now, the "Japan drive" ....

Yes.  I put motors above the truck on a cradle supported by the truck bolster, with the car body bolster pinned in between.  The motor then swivels with the truck, dropping any need for U joints.  This is not a new concept - it was used extensively by early Adams and CLW Diesel models.

Can you find/post a photo of that one, Bob?

How about the possiblity of an inline NWSL 2:1 reduction gearbox...if room allows{one or one each side}

To explain what SZ is saying in video...it's a nice step forward for HO..dual motor, more room for decoder, speakers....should also be more reliable and obviously offer more pulling power..look like easy access and maintenance as well

As for 0 scale...the closest I can think of would be the "Swiss Drive" from Hermann here the MTH Traxx version

Lionel's F-units , 2333 , 2343 ,2344, 2345 , all have a very similar set up except the worm gear is on the shaft in the truck body . I have often wondered about 2 railing the Lionel "growlers" , but the anti climber is part of the frame , so the frame would need extensive milling around the perimeter to accommodate a scale shell.

Are these reissues with can motors ?   When I asked in my original post about "anything like this before" I was referring to "can motor generation" machines -- I'm sorry I wasn't clearer.  There have been numerous one motor per truck designs over the years, as bob2 has pointed out.

Yes, the current Hermann production is a good example of what I was thinking of;  thank you Lafondue for that.  Hermann production has "always" used one motor per truck I believe, and that illustrated is the current generation.  If the Hermann drive were reworked to a low profile unit as the Kato.....

Best, SZ

As pointed out previously. There is nothing new here. It has been done before by others. I fail to see why this warranted to be called "Japan Drive" when Japan has nothing to do with the drive. This Kato mechanism is merely a copy of previous work done by others.

I would agree that Kato puts together some great electric trains.

Really ?  How about letting us in on these "others"-- give some specific examples.

Of anything mentioned above, only the recent Hermann and perhaps bob2's, comes close.  I'm not the only one that views it as new:

    'Model Railroader' says it's a new way to power HO locomotives.  'Continental Modeller'' calls it "technically innovative".

Sure, it doesn't have to be called "Japan drive" -- maybe "Kato drive" would be better.

SZ

Edited to correct grammar and to add that Kato is using coreless motors.
-

Very nice!  Coreless are pretty powerful for their size. 

Interesting. How about you learn to use the patent literature?

Having a score of patents myself and many applications, there are a couple of terms I have come to be quite familiar with:

"Obvious to one with ordinary skill in the art" and "Anticipated".

There are a number of patents that "anticipate" what Kato has done. It is obvious to one skilled in the art that different motor types can be substituted in lieu of another.  Thus, using a synchronous motor in lieu of a can motor (or any other combo) is anticipated and does not make new contribution to intellectual property or warrant a publication.

You can quote all the poor journalism you like, it is quite clear that the authors do not have any knowledge as to what has come before. If they did, they may not be so free to hand out congratulatory notes.

Thanks for the pic Lafondue...guess that makes my idea a bad one as I thought there was a central motor with drive shafts ran to the trucks....sorry, was trying to help..

How about the regular under the floor can motor to gearbox drive that Q-car has been producing for a very long time....or for that matter the old Wagner drive....

I'm not familiar with the Wagner drive [ or have forgotten from the MR's from years ago ].  I thought -- and I could be wrong here -- that the Q car drives were all single axle drives, like the Magic Carpets, and thus are a different category.

It appears Forumite WBC may know about similar predecessors to Kato, but he doesn't want to tell us.

Anyway, what's gone before is really moot anyway, and I'm somewhat sorry I brought it up;  the key thing is the hope, as PC-Quebec suggested, that other builders who produce 0 ga equipment can scale it up and produce it for us -- with no patent infringement, of course !

Best, SZ

Don't hold any patents, but I am registered.  Turns out that obvious stuff is patented all the time - you can almost add a cotter key and get a patent.

I will get a photo soon.  I had one, but Photobucket is trying to trick me, and is in fact winning.  All I know is that my can motor over the truck is two decades old.  It works really good.

Look no further than American Flyer.

One of these pictures is the drive system for the Baldwin switcher and the other is from Also PA-1. Clearly they are of the same concept as the Kato drive system. A permanent magnet motor drives series of gears which turns a longitudinal shaft equipped with a worm which turns the wheels.  

Q-car drives are not magic carpet drives and like the older Wagner drive do have transferal of power from one axle to the other.

 

Don't hold any patents, but I am registered.  Turns out that obvious stuff is patented all the time - you can almost add a cotter key and get a patent.

 A bit of hyperbole there, Bob,   But you are correct that the obvious and clear prior art does get patented and patented again.  I'm aware of an issued US patent that is an actual copy & paste of one of mine.

But, I also agree with you, Bob, that this is not a novel concept for an O scale drive and pre-dates most of the people posting here as well.  The process of re-invention and re-discovery continues to plague us.  And, Photobucket has gotten progressively cumbersome for me as well.

This architecture (of mounting the motor on the truck) is used in the Jawn Henry from Sunset. A small 8xxx Pittman motor equipped with a tiny flywheel is riding on top of the complex double truck system.

I am waiting for parts from Sunset and hopefully will be soon in a position to publish an article describing the Jawn Henry in O Scale Magazine.

Yves

Norm Buckhart (Protocraft), Terry Van Winkle & I have been working on a drive that uses a small Faulhaber gear head motor and our 1:1 gearboxes.  The motor mounts directly to a tower which bolts to one of the axle gearboxes.  This will provide for a compact unit that eliminates the need for a tank drive.  The idea is one gear head motor for each truck.

The final piece we need is the tower castings.  As of yesterday, the master has been produced, a mold made, and waxes shot.  We should have the first sets of castings Sunday afternoon.

I'll post some photos next week.

Stay tuned,

Jay

I just finished the mechanical portion of the SW1 we're installing our new drive into.  Bottom line, one high efficiency Faulhaber gear head motor per truck.  The trickiest portion of this installation was moving the motor far enough forward to clear the cab.  I believe this drive will be perfect for small diesels.  Using a battery for power the model runs very quietly and is smooth.

Next I'll re-install the wiring, DCC, & finish the final assembly.  Once this is done I'll ship it back to the owner, let him test run it for a while, and install these drives in four more of his models.

If all goes well Protocraft will be selling these drives in a few months.  They will be available for P48 & Ow5 (regular 2r OScale).

We still have our other drives as well.

Jay

First class work Jay. I enjoy seeing a well designed and well executed drive. This sure appears to be one. Do you see this becoming a possible RS-3 drive or it is intended more for shorter switchers?

Thanks

Bob

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the compliments!  We're trying to get better with every installation.

Of the six locos I'm modifying, with these drives, one is an early RS.  I'll post photos of that one also.  Terry feels these gear head motors will work just fine with larger diesels also.....we'll see.  I sure hope so, mostly because of the ease of installation.

More to follow,

Jay

Jay

Thanks for posting those photos. Your craftsmanship is excellent. I have been thinking along similar lines to repower my four sunset GG1s. A few questions, if you don't mind:

I assume you are using Stock Drive Parts cogged belts and pulleys?

Do you think these motors have enough torque to pull a ten car aluminum passenger set?

What is the RPM of the motor (after the gear reduction?

How noisy are those gear motors at speed?

Are the motors available with an ungeared output shaft (i.e. part of the motor armature), so you can fit a flywheel?

Thanks in advance

John

John,

Thanks for the compliments!

Yes, Stock Drive Products (SDP) is normally my first choice but if I'm in a hurry I'll go with McMaster Carr if they have what I need.  I say this because they ship most things from their SOCAL location and I'll bet the parts 3 days sooner.  Lately I've ordered from Global also but, as I said above, SDP is my usual choice.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure.  They have a tremendous amount of torque for their size.  We get them from Germany and the standard ratios are 8:1, 22:1, and 30 something to one.  We've ordered a couple of the 30s to install into a couple of small (2-8-0) steam engines.

From what I've experienced, these are far quieter than other gear heads.

I asked the same question for the installation of flywheels and was told no but I want to pursue this further.

When I'm doing a larger engine, like a GG1, I still fall back to the 19:1 Pittman gear head motor.  Having said that, we'll eventually install some of these Faulhabers into one of my SD9s.  This should provide us with testing the limits of these motors.

Jay

If you ever want to put PS/2 command electronics in one of these, you need a flywheel on at least one motor.

Bob,

Sure, we can discuss it.

Jay

Jay C, could you turn a brass flywheel to press fit over the outside OD of the top drive cog...or would that block an allen set screw to hold the cog drive on?

I love what you guys make..even though it's targeted only towards scale and 2 rail...maybe some day enough of us 3 railers would make a need for you to turn some long flange wheels for us to use with your drives...at least we wouldn't need insulated wheels... 

Bob,

Please remember, these are gear head motors and the one shown in the photos has a 22:1 reduction.  This means the output shaft is turning 22 times slower than the motor.  Because of this reduction any flywheel beyond the output really wouldn't do much.

Truthfully, these drives would work with 3R.

Jay

Jay

Jay,

Beautiful craftmanship! Thanks for sharing with us.

I've always enjoyed your work and have followed what you've done on the other forum.

Superpower,

Thanks for the kind words.  I'll try to keep it up.

Jay

That is the statement I was hoping would come up. Every so often I'd see an interesting looking streetcar or interurban at the model transit show, and the only thing keeping me from "adopting" one is the lack of a suitable 3-rail drivetrain. This could be a solution (assuming that its cost doesn't rival or exceed a RTR brass model )

---PCJ