Anyone else with LC+ GP7 Problems, let me know, please

EDIT: BTW, if I knew the next pair I buy would not have this flaw I'd buy at least two more.  The trucks looks similar too, and are the same distance apart as, those on my Lionel F3s (specially on the Santa Fe Anniversary set and similar locos - I have about nine around here somewhere).  It looks as if it would be easy to mount an F3 body on this chassis.  Very simple  A set of two to four LC+ Warbonnet F3s would be the stuff that dreams are made of! 

Lee,

  I hope Lionel makes the F-3s with LC+

Art

Lee, I don't understand your reluctance to send them to Lionel for evaluation.  Have you at least contacted them regarding the situation?  Perhaps, there are others with the same problem, and, hopefully Lionel can offer you some help.  They may not know anything, but they SHOULD be made aware of this.  Bob S.

It sounds to me like a tolerance issue between the axles and the  truck housing. Can also be the gears are out of spec. When you opened one up and put it back together, you changed the tolerance "stack up" and now it will work.

If you got one to work, I am sure you can get the other one to work too. Having TWO fail the same way, and you buying them at the same time indicates a major parts out of spec issue, statistically speaking...me thinks!

I confess I'd be so curious I'd have to get to the bottom of it.  I don't think I'll buy one just to work on it however.

Hmmm, a good point, I may do some exploring and re-assembly - not a lot to lose, right

Thanks you everyone who asnwered.  Appreciate it.

Why would he be doing Lionel a dis-service. I think the dis-service has been done to him. Another, fine Asian Product. Lionel has to have a Engineer with the ability to

check the tolerance configuration of the Model.

Here is the real scoop. How does a Company keep Manufacturing product without

upgrading design issues. I assume we all know a couple of products that have issues?

Just remember folks. How long it took to get rid of the plastic armature.  Send this crap back for a refund.. That is the only way to get their attention.

With Lionel having a service center and many service stations I don't understand why you do not want to seek help. If I had something that didn't work, I would want it fixed.

Oh I do, Jim.  I just want to do it myself. 

I think your suggestion is it.  I have been working on one.  Only one of the two axles on the jammed truck is truly jammed so tight it has no play at all - the one toward the center.  If I play with it, working it side to side and all, it will suddenly give a tiny "pop" from down inside the mechaism (not from the sides, and come loose, and have as much play as the other three axles.  The loco will them run fine for about one to as many as twenty feet before jamming again.  I can do this over and over again but it jams again.  

I now know where the problem is and about what it is, -- not a lot of suspects left now - i know where to go look and adjust.  Unforunately, this is the truck with the complex motor (all the speed control sensors, but here's hoping it comes apart and behaves itself while it does

I will be Friday at the earliest before I get back to it.  Have to go to work tomorrow..  

I have faith in you Lee, you'll get to the bottom of it.  Anyone that kit-bashes Streets stuff like you do can surely solve this little issue.

@Lee:

I think it may be better Not to continue to run them in such a state, running locked up gears will stress everything and the over current protection may give up the ghost. If you can get to turn the shafts in the truck by hand, you will be able to find out the "tight" spots and go from there.

IMHO, You did not do Lionel a disservice, if anything you gave them a positive feedback since you said you would even buy more of them. I did not see a single negative word in your original post. I think you wanted to save time and money for your self and in the process you saved Lionel money by not sending them in. Also, any time you ship a loco, you risk shipping damage.

I also like to fix my own locos if I can, but I also call the manufactures and tell about my findings. If they are listening, they will make a note to help their future products.

Some people send the loco immediately when they encounter a problem, and that's OK too, they paid for the warranty and they deserve good service.

Let's know how it goes and post some pix if you can....

I hope you are right.  If so I have big plans for bashing these LC+ things: putting EMD F bodies on the GP-7 chassis (if Lionel doesn't beat me to it), and, I've been thinking about that Mikado - two of their chassis might just fit inside one Lionmaster casting - you don't know until you try . . . but I still have to get this diagnosed, then fixed.

Agreed and Lee we all know you just can't leave a problem like this unresolved. You may set it aside for a bit but eventually come back and get to the crux of the issue. That's why so many of us follow your posts; we know we're going to learn something.

Lee,

Check the plastic bearings for the drive gear shaft. One of my old customers lives up the street, and got a LC+ GP7 for his son recently. It hasn't jammed, yet anyway, but started stutter stepping so he asked me to look at it.

I found the plastic bearing on one side of the drive gear shaft was cracked, but not enough to notice at a quick glance. Under load the crack would widen, letting the gear shaft shift enough make the worm and worm wheel start to lose mesh, then pop back in again.

The plastic bearings on the LC loco seems different from the nylon bearings Lionel used on older diesels with a similar drive. You may not have the same problem, but it's worth taking a look.

Lee,

Interesting that the same truck is jammed on both units, are they identical or is the one under the cab different for some unknown reason? Is it possible something is caught in the gears? Ballast, staple, etc.?

Are you sure its not metal filings or layout construction materials?  Probably wouldn't take much to gum up the works.

Good Luck, very interesting.

Rich

I have had issues with Lionel gears not meshing on older TMCC diesels.

The F3's released in 2004 A-B-A were notorious for gears that hung up on each other.

Had to disassemble and find where they were binding at.

i still think you should contact Lionel.  they may already have a fix or, more importantly, they may not know about it at all.

not saying don't try to fix yourself.

I sent two e-mails.  Nothing so far but they are busy and i will give them a few days.  

I bought these two locos from a large internet site, three weeks apart, but they were apparently part of the same group of 12 they got at one time, so this may be a problem affecting only a few, just this batch.  

Well, I have put these aside.  I put six hours into this and its all I can afford. 

I took the problem truck on one of them apart-they were both jammed in identical fasion so I left the one along but took the other all apart.  I found nothing, and put it back together.  The axles were free for about ten feet of running and then, again, the center-most axle jammed solid, as if welded, locking the entire truck's mechanism (the other axle and the gears and motor have the slightest amount of play in them, indicating they aren't the problem). I played with tightening all the screws a lot and a little, on the theory tolerances might be slightly off, and etc., but to no avail.  I've put all the time I will into these I can.  Other projects await.  And so far, despite two calls and three e-mails, no response from Lionel.

So at least for now they sit on my spare parts shelf: both fully assembled.  When and if I butcher them for parts depends on if and when I have a project that needs what they can contribute.  It's possible that if someone does discover what is the problem I will return and fix them, but I can't find it, and I have no more good time to throw after bad.

I really like the GP7.  Maybe MTH or 3rd Rail makes one.  I love LC+, but no more diesels for me until I know this is fixed.  They don't cost enough that I wouldn't take a chance but the time and frustration just aren't worth it.  

One of the few times Lionel has really disappointed me.

I am truly sorry for this.  If you are unable to fix this, I am pretty sure there will be others in the same situation soon enough.  Also, what is a huge disappointment is the lack of response from Lionel.  I already have two GP-7's (yet un-run) and another on order from LCCA.  

If I had an email address for Lionel, I would surely forward your post to them, with some commentary of my own.  I hope things will change for you regarding this problem Lee.  If Lionel does get in touch with you, please don't be stubborn, and let them fix the situation for you.  Bob S. 

This almost sounds like something odd like a subtle gear issue where the pitch of the gears are just enough off to jam after running a ways.  It's certainly one of the odder issue I've seen.

I may have missed something, but I can't imagine what.  It may be that these two are just part of a small batch that was bad, but I'm just going to get on with other things.  I have so many projects backed up.  It is somethin g to do with that one axle on both, but . . . I thought of pulling/grinding the teeth off the gear on that axle, letting it just run free: the loco would still have three powered axles.  But I decided not to get in that deep.  Maybe time will tell me, or maybe I will never know but enough others will say LC+ diesels run well enough that I try again.  For now, I'm working this afternoon on making a fruit-stand panel van like of Richard E's 1:43 Chronicle last Friday.  

Lionel has offered several Legacy GP7's in recent years, none have any gear issues

Have you tried any Red N" Tacky on those gears to see if it prevents the jamming?