Around the walls, not on a table in the middle of the room

 "Is is possible to maximize my space using these dimensions building around the 2 walls  ....or is an 8x15 space best used on a table in the middle of the room?"

  It kinda depends on the room and how many doors, windows, etc. are on the walls. If you can go all the way around the room with only one opening section for access then that's usually the best way to get a long run and wide curves. If lots of the wall needs to be kept clear for windows, or other access then a table in the middle might be better. I'd stand in the room and visualize how each solution might look and then pick what feels best....DaveB

Most modern layout "gurus" will tell you to build around the walls to maximize space. While that is true, it doesn't bother to address a couple key points...

• What if you have several doors in the room? Do you want to have multiple drop downs, lift outs, or duck unders just to use you layout?
• What if you enjoy being able to get multiple viewing angles to a scene? Around the walls locks you into a limited number of angles.
• What if you want lower level staging or a return loop? Blobs are very difficult in O going around the walls
• One could argue that storage and wiring are easier with an island too.

As an example, look at John Armstrong's Nasmyth and Lake Michigan plan and tell me if you have ever seen a plan with so much to offer in such a small space? Yep, it's an island.

I'm not trying to steer you away from going around the walls. That's what I will be building. Just don't think that there aren't valid reason for an island style because there are.

I am attaching a diagram to help give a visual of the space I am working with. For now I limited to half the basement....the other half is for TV/lounge/workout area...Where my current table sits is where I would like to design new benchwork possibly in some sort of U shape and not just have an 8x15 table in the middle of the room....Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated...from there I can work on track plans and work with what I can fit.....

My personal opinion is that neither approach, island or around-the-wall, is superior and the choice is a personal one given the constraints of the room used (as Jonathan mentions) and what you hope to accomplish with the layout.

My current layout is an 11'x17' island as that plan allowed me to maximized what I wanted to do with the space on hand.

My rebuild will be an 26'x17' around the room layout.

The reason that I'm moving to an around the room layout, is that it is a better fit for my new track plan, including moving to larger (O-80/O-72) curves.

To me, the biggest drawback to an island layout is access to the switches and track.  A minor derailment or dead spot in the track (and this can vary from engine to engine) will likely happen at the hardest point to reach!

So there isn't one right or wrong answer.  Draw up several track plans using both approaches and see what works best for you.

Jim

Around the walls works only is you can use all 4 walls of a room.  Being you only have 2 walls, a table will probably be the best bet.  This is what I had to do with mine.  I have a 19x13 ft room and wanted to do around the walls, but the placement of a door killed that idea.  So now I have a 6.5x15 ft table biased to one side of the room which gives me one loop of O72 (which I needed to have) and a couple loops of smaller in the middle, but still able to reach where I need to.

Now if you want to keep O36 curves, you can do an L layout along those walls which would still be nice, but if you want greater curves, you'll need to come off of the walls.

Based on the diagram of the room provided an around the walls layout is out of the question if you want to keep the TV space for TV viewing.  It also looks like the stairs come down in the upper left corner, essentially eliminating that space for your layout.  You can do a folded dog bone layout to gain more running space.  Consider moving the table up against the 8 foot wall and pinching the layout in that area so that you can reach a train if things to bad.  How much space do you have on the 8 foot width between the current table and the support col?  Also, how much space do you have between the support col and the stairs?  I had to do an along the walls layout, being able to reach things is a bonus.  Going with a wider table IMO doesn't get you much other than unreachable real estate.

My layout is around the walls, basically a deep shelf on bookcases. While this provides space for 72 inch curves which look nice with bigger equipment, the lack of depth does pose limits on swithces, certainly no crossovers, and Lionel working accessories. Not that I could trade for an island as the layout is in my den which is fairly small (12x14), so the around the room provides distance for the trains to run as well as space for me and other activities the room must support.

Bogie

Here is my rebuild plan:

At the bottom of diagram is a wall that has an old flat screen tv mounted to it, along with my old stereo (a receiver and a turntable on shelves) and two in the wall speakers.  I am using the area underneath the new benchwork for storage, having built it high enough to store totes stacked three high.

Its about 8' wide open area in the lower half of my new layout, and I will be placing a fooseball table and a futon so that I can comfortably watch the tv.  I may also throw a treadmill into the upper area.

So if you have a 10' or 11' wide area (not counting the washer and dryer space) you might be able to do an around the wall layout and still be able to put some stuff inside the layout.

Jim

I have a 9x16 round-the-room[round the wall] layout in a 9x19 attic with a single entrance at one end, window at the other. An island type is not a choice in such a confined space. I have wide curve arcs:  84/96 and 072/84 at the 9' ends. If one is young a duckunder is workable but I built this at 77 [now 83] and opted for a drop section entry recycled from an earlier layout. [see first photo]. The Yard side is 40" wide and the Village is 36' wide. The layout is basically dormant since 2011 due to illness and lameness.

My point in posting is to mention a 1978 rectangular or "O" shaped 8-6' x 18' basement layout that utilized two walls and two sides were open to the rest of the basement due to furnace, electrical panels, laundry,etc. I built it the same as the round the room layout described above with open walk around and "reach" space in the middle except it had a duckunder instead of a hinged drop section. As I recall the curves were 072 and 066 using Gargraves flextrack. I think there was only one siding[two turnouts]. It was primarily a run around and display layout and unfortunately I was transferred from N.J. back to N.C. shortly after completing the track ballasting and wiring.

My point is that you can build a round-the-wall type platform with only two walls and achieve relatively wide curves if that is your druther. Of course one gives up a lot of scale acres that an island type provides. 

The "Around the Walls" concept doesn't necessarily mean around every wall. It actually refers to operating from the center of the layout with narrower shelves than you'd have with an "Island" style layout. A good illustration of this is Scott Perry's "Heart of Georgia" H.O. layout which took a single 4x8 sheet of plywood cut  to form a 9'x8' open-center (around-the-walls) layout that allowed for using 24" minimum radius instead of 18" minimum radius. Even using the original 1-foot deep benches for O gauge, it would allow for the easy use of O-48 and O-60 FasTrack instead of being limited to O-36 FasTrack.

Going back to the space in question, an 8x15 island vs. an 8x15 open-center layout, while allowing for the same sized curves, provides a better operating environment for the following reasons:

• Easier reach across the depth of the bench work. Rest assured, on an Island, when something derails it will be at some hard to reach area.
• You can only view part of the layout at any given time when operating from the center.
• Longer cars are always viewed from the inside, so when they go through curves, the view is much better.
• If sectioned, the layout sections are usually lighter and easier to manage.

Make it a U-Shaped with a large horseshoe curves that are O-54 or O-63.

Put a Sky backdrop on the two basement walls first.

You can put a moveable backdrop between the two posts near the couch.

Andrew

Falcon Service

My single loop is around the perimeter of my office,  up above the door openings (roof layout some refer to this as).   My goal is / has been just to run a variety of trains,  no switching,  etc,  keeping it simple.

I recently moved up to Atlas O 0-91 curves (from 0-72).  Prefer the larger radius curves,  trains look more realistic,  if this is of importance to you.

Search Youtube NativeFLA if  you would like to see examples.   Earlier videos pre 1 year ago would be the old 0-72 Lionel tubular track.  More recent HD stuff is the Atlas O.

Mark

I've had a love/hate relationship with my U shape around the wall since I built it. There are a lot of advantages such as the ability to use the walls a backdrop and the general illusion that the trains do appear to "go somewhere," especially if you employ reverse loops and modified figure eights.

There are a lot of drawbacks, though. As someone else mentioned, you may not be able to get larger radius track unless you can do all four walls. Without using four walls, you'll need "bump-outs" on either end to turn the trains around. You can stagger the bump-outs to maximize the size but you're still limited to the total width of the area and you tolerance for the size of the inner walking isle. In my case my width is a bit more narrow than optimum and I like a wider isle in the middle.

The other major issue I run into continually is that there just isn't much depth along the wall runs. It fills up fast and it's difficult to place larger scenic and operation elements. Also, unless you're going to stay tight to the wall it doesn't provide the access you'd think it might. I really wish I had at least small access isles running along the walls.

Some type of home remodel is in our future. Once that occurs I'll most likely be taking down the existing layout and building a new one. I probably won't do another U or wall hugger.

When I rebuilt my present layout I went with an island type, with open center(donut shape). Only had two clear walls in the basement.

  I have 120 diameter curves and added a peninsula to the center. The big advantage I noticed after completion is I get double the viewing. I not only get to see the entire perimeter but also all the inteior in other word both sides of the track!! So I get 100 feet on the outside, another 150 feet or more inside. I have swinging gate access to center.

Clem     

Clem,

Great design...that's actually what I would build next time rather than the simple U or wall hugger.

Dom

Thank you Dom

It's also great for open house, the operators are in the center and the guests walk around the display. Its also built in 2x8 foot sections so if I had the room i could go larger.

clem

I had a 12 x 28 island with a lot of accessories on it.  Maintenance was a pain.  I rebuilt the layout around the walls.  Now the accessories are near the edge of the layout.  I am able to do the maintenance easily and as a result everything works.

Al

Appreciate everyones input...after reading your comments I have come to some conclusions:

- No need for curves to be O72 or greater...(at this time)

- Reach in definitely a main concern

- I plan on leaving 18" of space between the benchwork and the 2 walls so I can get behind to work

- I would like to have 2 loops so I can run 2 trains at the same time

- Possible expansion in the future

Please see attached plan for what I have come up with so far......

My reach should be no more the 2 1/2 feet from anywhere I need to do work on the layout.

Left side will be more of a city/small town scene and right side will be an industry or 2..

Do you see any problems using O45 and O54 track with the configuration...O54 loop on the outside and O45 loop on the inside?

Any other input is greatly appreciated.......

I am going with around the wall.   First question I had with yours was the top left

corner, where there was a kickout.  ((with the "D" at the bottom of the staircase, which is not shown whether it goes up or down, I ASSUME down to the bottom, with door into basement (BUT...closet under stairs??) and you can move bookcase and utilize that top left corner and the bookcase space?)) Such as to put a turntable or part of a "Y" into it, and then have a reverse loop out into the space to the left of the two center support poles, at the other end.  Along my walls will just be sidings, industries, with a station and a gas station, representing towns, except at each end of a point-to-point.  Only "accessories" are highway flashing crossbucks, so I don't have some of the problems above. It might be possible to have it both ways, with a dropdown to break an around the room into a "U".  Depends on what the "D" is for.

Unfortunately, track loops just seem to take more space than you visualize, island or

wall.

Love to see some photos of the final layout,   Great views it sounds like..............

Mark

D under stairs is a doorway with a closet under the stairs....not "DOWN"....the area where the bookcase is on the left hand side is not usable....that would block off access to the rest of the basement....I agree with you on track space....never seems to be enuff

Great idea!!! Can you provide me with more details on the dimensions? I am having trouble enlarging the attachment.

Joe and Mark

Overall dimensions 36X22 feet

Loop to loop it only looks like a double main.

First two photos is the access first version and current version 

Clem,

Thanks for showing photos of your layout.  It's been a while since I have seen them.  I agree, if one has the room, building like yours to get around all sides and in the middle is the ultimate.  Your swingout section is an engineering and construction feat!

If one is cramped for room like me; waiting on the last daughter to move out, so I can upgrade 4 fold to a room almost 12x12, then I recommend just around the walls, as others have said.  If building an island in my room, then I would need a popup in the middle.  I am not building a popup at 59 years of age.  

joeceleb,

if you narrow the U to 40", you can have an 084 outer loop with an Atlas truss crossing the space entrance as lift up.

This is the around the perimeter(room) concept to get wide radius curves.

The U with 60" ends will only allow 048 as the maximum radius.

or just walkaround the 8' x 14' as a solid table. With no track in the center your reach will be ok. You could divide the visually with a mountain in the center in either direction.

The U

Thanks for the kind words everyone….I really like the track plan,only thing I would change is making everything longer and two feet wider. I need a larger building. The yard and industrial area have ground throws for the turnouts that can only be reached from the inside,nice feature during open house. 

clem

36x22.....How I would love to have that much space....yet you still want longer and wider.....guess that is the nature of this hobby...unfortunately for me right now I only have an 8x15 area to work with...maybe as I claim more real estate I can look at the peninsula design...thanks again for your input

I like that suggestion of narrowing the U and putting in the truss bridge from Atlas...the bridge looks amazing...My first attempt would be to install it and duck under until I do some more research on have it lift up...I am going to redraw the new dimensions and have another look....with the truss bridge installed it certainly opens up more opportunities for the actual tracks layout and still keep me within reach of all areas of the layout....thank you Moonman....

Joe

The bridge is not a big deal to install, several threads on methods here on the forum. The other options are tha Atlas double track truss and the new, but not here yet, Lionel Truss,

6-82110,

which is 39" long.

I was looking for a good shot of the BNSF layout built by TWTrainWorx for their shareholder meetings. (Berskshire Hathaway) City on one side and country on the other. The mountain is narrow and high, but creates the visual separation.

Here is a video of the April 2014 open house. Start at 9:15 on the city side and ride around to the industry/country side. At 10:46 there is a pretty good look of how it divides the layout.  Warren likes the trains. real and models. Also, here.

Here's the 8 x 14 island 084\072 with a mountain divider

Still like the U?

For those that don't have scarm here is a sample of the layout in 2 other formats.

My layout, the PRR Panhandle, is 18.5' x 10' (really 18.5' x10' x 18.5' x 8.5').  It is a modified John Armstrong folded dog-bone design and sits against 3 walls.  I did that to maximize the size of curves.  My biggest mainline curve is O63 and my smallest in O54.  That is adequate to run my largest locomotive.  Yards and spurs have O31 or O42 curves.

It was originally designed for a 23'x10' space, but we moved and I had to cut it down a bit.  The big area in the center is a walk-way.  The aisle is about 2.5' wide (a little tight but workable).

A table in the middle of the room would not have worked well for me.

Hope this helps.

George

joeceleb,

I am only offering different points of view. I think many pass on a walk-around or island layout because you need a larger room or a smaller layout table.

I like an island layout because it's provides many viewpoints. I think that helps keep it fresh as time passes and accommodates guests.

The center divider is just one technique to permit you to have two totally different themes or one with different geographic locations.

if you eliminate some of the straights with some 090 and snake down one side, it adds interest to the train. Toys trains look good moving around a little and not always going in a straight line like the real trains.

Sorry, I didn't know you were using Atlas. Are you mixing in the MTH because you have some?

The 3D feature allows you to view the idea. Placing tape on the floor also helps.

Take some time and consider all of the options. Both will work and have benefits for features and operations.

here's some examples of crossovers and "snake" section.

I waffled for awhile between "around" and "island" layout.  I have a long, narrow basement room with three doors and a staircase, so a lot of obstacles.  I didn't want a layout only 36" deep and I had to have a yard and reverse loop - so I went with an island and haven't regretted it.  I made sure that I can easily walk around all the sides for accessing anything on the layout.

Carl,

It's taken me awhile to get used to SCARM and I was having problem creating my loops using the mountain range in the middle....I was able to work it where I got 3 loops connected...and then realized I may not have enuff room for other scenery and buildings, ect...so I went back and remove the inner loop....which I may go back and put in once I have the mounting range done...I can have that inner loop part of a ridge around the mounting range...for now I will worry about that later....Please see attached files for what I have come up with so far....any one have any comments is always appreciated....

For those who do not have SCARM I am attaching jpg images. 

Joeceleb,

I think you can make the three loops work. First, if you create a crossover between the outer two loops or set you track spacing to 5.5" center rail to center on the outside loops, you'll create more space in the center for the third loop.

Secondly, make the third, inside, loop straight on the "snake' side. This will provide a location to put a switch or two in and have spurs for something.

Lastly, the mountain range doesn't need to be 27" wide. I only dropped in the object for a concept. 18" at the widest point provide the visual divider and leave more space for structures and such.

You had the table out of square. here's what am I talking about. Ross 054's for spurs.