Asking for a little assistance

Your other two images didn't come through. The drawing with dimensions is critical.

I'm sorry, this is the first time I posted pictures on here, I will try again, thank you for responding.

Darren

I had a little free time on my hands this morning and I decided to draw (free-hand) out the idea I had in my head about a Horseshoe Curve track plan.  Now I know it's "crude" at best, but I hope it is a start and I can get some feedback on how to improve upon it.

I have always wanted to have a layout that incorporated the curve and with me wanting the trains to "run" for the boys, I think this plan accomplishes those goals.

I do have SCARM and Anyrail downloaded, but neither support the MTH Scaletrax I currently own.  I had previously used the free program Atlas offered but it has since been removed, at least with that program I could plot out my room size and start from there, I haven't figured out that on either of the other two programs, not saying it can't be done, just haven't "dug" into it yet.

Darren, Unless they seriously upgrade the MTH version, it does not support Scaletrax.

I have several copies and it only has Realtrax and accessories.

Email me with your address and I'll send you one of them.

Russell,

I sent you an e-mail, again, Thank You, for offering to help me with my layout!

Darren

As near as I can tell, RealTrax and ScaleTrax have the same dimensions for the same track, ie 54" curves, so you can get close with any design software that offers RealTrax as long as you limit yourself to track pieces that are also in the ScaleTrax library. The problem with Scarm is it doesn't support either and the free version of AnyRail is limited to 50 pieces. Still, you could probably design in sections of 50 or less to get something to work with. Given how much I'm going to spend on track in the next couple of years, it was worth it to me to go ahead and buy RR-Track v5.1 with the appropriate libraries, though I probably didn't need the accessory libraries. YMMV

 Darren,

I'm in trouble with Dave, so I have to finish posting on my ideas for him and then I'll see what I can add for your layout.

A couple of things that strike me right away are the hidden tracks and the duck-under. If you use open grid benchwork under the mountain, you should be able to reach any problems that arise. I see a lot of crawling under your layout to access the middle open area. If you can keep the width of the layout to under 2' in the lower right, this will open the oppurtunity for a gate or lift section to allow you to walk in.

I'll have to brush up on Horseshoe Curve.

Stewart,

I don't want anyone in trouble, so please finish helping Dave first, lol.  I do plan to use open grid benchwork and I was pondering raising the height to a minimum of 38" to ease the duck-under to the middle section.  For the record, I do not plan to spend much time there, that is for the boys to be close to the action, I'll be sitting on a stool somewhere nearby.

Thank you,

Darren

Darren,

Take a look at these pictures and let me know what you think. I got a little creative in the turn table area. This will allow you to turn an engine and have it run in either direction on either loop of track. The Horseshoe Curve doesn't flare like your drawing, but can be changed to do so. I was looking at pictures of the curve online and tried to keep the parallel track look.

The cross section near the Curve is less than 18", so a lift bridge is feasible.

This track plan was drawn using AtlasO track, so it is for demonstration purposes. I took a quick look at the catalog, and I didn't see a Y turnout. You might have to use a turnout with a piece of flex track.

Stewart, I hope you're just kidding because you are certainly not in any trouble with me. And I've got plenty of time, so please help those that are actively working on a layout before you devote any time to me. Just keep me on your list.

Cheers, Dave

Stewart,

Wow, thank you, those look awesome compared to my drawings, what program did you use?

Thank you,

Darren

I was

That was drawn in Scarm using AtlasO track. While MTH does not have O-81, O-90, and O-99 curved sections of track, with careful planning, you can create those with the flex track.

Stewart,

Thank you, I'm going to spend some time on Scarm today and see if I can figure out how to first draw the room dimensions, and then start from there.

Darren

With SCARM you can make your own "Custom" pieces of track with the flex-track tool if you know the geometry specs. I've previously created MTH-equivalent tracks on a "starter template" with AnyRail, and from this you can simply cut and paste to make additional pieces. This doesn't include switches, but you can overlay straights and curves, or maybe find other brands of track with the same geometry.

Apparently MTH hasn't co-operated to provide track specs to the producers of other track-planning software. So for now, maybe folks will try this improvising tactic if they want to draw MTH track with AnyRail or SCARM .

I haven't personally used MTH track so I don't know all the specs for exact certain. I'm hoping someone else will carry the ball with this idea. I created the attached AnyRail file before I developed SCARM as my preferred software.

Great thing about SCARM is how you can create irregular layout shapes. It takes some effort to do this with accurate dimensions so be sure to save multiple files as you progress.

Example of irregular layout shape and multiple levels drawn with SCARM, in 3-D view.

I simply didn't want to take the time to do all that or buy track to measure before I make my final decision on what track I'm going to use. There's some things I'm willing to do and others I'm wiling to pay for. Call me crazy, but for me, paying for RR-Track is akin to supporting my LHS.

As for MTH not cooperating, I don't have a clue as to how all that works. Maybe Scarm's developer can explain how he got the specs for the track libraries that are included. MTH is a bit different though in that they offer their own design software, so they don't have a big incentive to offer the specs up for free so others can profit. Yes, I know Scarm is currently free, but that doesn't mean it always will be or that others (AnyRail) wouldn't be able to rip the specs from Scarm and profit. Mind you, I don't necessarily agree with that policy, if that's what it is, because I think adding MTH to Scarm would only help bring more potential customers to the table. But, like I said, I don't know how it all works, so I reserve judgment.

Like I said, if Scarm ever gets MTH libraries and is accurate, I won't mind chalking up the money I spent on RR-Track to a lesson learned and switch. This won't be the first time I've bought software that I ended up not using in the long run. I bought Photoshop on a student discount, but I still mostly use the free Picasa3 and only sometimes use PS simply because I have it. I'm quite sure I could have used Scarm to design a layout with some other track and then used the design to lay ScaleTrax and make the necessary adjustments along the way. Since I want to use a lot of FlexTrack, I will most likely end up doing just that even though I have RR-Track with the ScaleTrax library.

One thing I will say, Scarm's 3D view is much better than RR-Track's (though I may not have things set up correctly) and I'm finding more things wrong with RR-Track, though none that really affect the program's designing capabilities. It's mostly stuff like freezing and closing abruptly.

Thanks for posting the tip.

Ace,

Can either you or Stewart explain how you started with designing the dimensions using Scarm.  I previously used the Atlas program and it was easy, just plug in the axis points and your train layout area was created.  With Scarm, and I haven't had much time to explore or experiment yet, but when I try to create a "baseboard" I can't get the correct area to view without the numbers going into the negative, I know this sounds confusing, so if either of you, or anyone else, can get me started, I would REALLY appreciate it.  Once I get going and have an area to create a layout in I think I will be fine with some time.

Thank you,

Darren

Darren,

Lionel is releasing a resin cast MG Switch Tower, which would fit in perfect on your Horseshoe Curve. The list price is $299.99. It is definitely a splurge piece, but think of the the happiness of the children! It's shown on page 43 of the fall catalog.

I attached a copy of my Scarm file that contains your layout. Feel free to play with it and tweak it! I snagged some great photos off the web to study and will make some attempts to revise the track plan. Until then, here is a quick tutorial on how I created your layout in scarm.

Using your drawing, I plotted all of the coordinates. Coordinates will be entered in inches for both the X and Y axis. Before you begin drawing, check to make sure you are drawing in inches. (Tools --> Settings--> Dimensions)

Go to the view menu, and select Show Size and Area. When you complete the baseboard, the length of all of the sides will appear.

Go to the tools menu and select Toolbox.

In the Toolbox, open the options menu (single click the down arrow), and choose Baseboard (abs. coordinates).

This is where you will enter the coordinates. As you enter each set of coordinates, a line will appear showing the side of the baseboard you are drawing. 

After you have entered the last set of coordinates, click the Done button. A blue line and the lengths of the sides will appear.

You have now completed the baseboard.

To download the Scarm file, right click the link and select Save target as... Note the file may have a .txt extension. You can either change the extension now or after the file has downloaded. The new extension should be .scarm. I have found if you view the Scarm file before attempting to download it, it will change to a .txt extension.

A couple of more notes after downloading. Reset the height for all track to 0. This makes changing track configuration easy. After the track is reconfigured, you can change the height back for a proper 3D view. I used a height of 6.54" (closest I could get to 6.5") and the grade was under 2%. Also, I left the rails and sleepers unchecked. Go to Tools --> Settings--> 2D and add the rails and/or sleepers (ties) as you wish. Building the trackplan with just the outline of the track pieces helps to make alignment and viewing track information easier.

Thanks for that lesson, Stewart. I've occasionally drawn irregular baseboards just by referencing the grid on the screen, but you've shown that entering co-ordinates is easier and more accurate.  I'm still learning. I have often used the 'baseboard rectangular' toolbox feature, that's super easy.

Regarding Dave's comments: I will admit that SCARM isn't so easy when it doesn't include your track library. I happen to like geometry and SCARM lets me input specs for different or outdated items like old Marx O34. Considering that SCARM is free and still under development, I find it very useful and creative.

Stewart,

Again, THANK YOU, I was able to download your file and "experiment" a little this morning with the track plan, with a little time I think I will get accustomed to the program and hopefully I can post some of my ideas using the program and not colored pencils.

Darren

Darren,

I took another crack at the track plan. With this version, I was able to make a single entrance into the turntable. The upper loops will cover less of the lower loops and provide more room for the turntable. 

Stewart,

Eliminating the extra curves from the top and creating a greater radius on the curve was what I was trying to work on this morning, just not that great with Scarm yet, but I do like what you did with the yard area and the rest of the changes. Again, thank you very much for helping me, I am hoping that soon I'll be satisfied with a track plan and I can start to work on the layout, I think a little "tweaking" here and there and it will be perfect!

Darren

Darren,

I created the largest curves possible (O-126) to fit into the room. The Scarm file is attached, but I need to finish the yard area with some custom curved sections.  I went back and re-examined your first photos. It looks like the stairs exit into the room right against the track. Do you need to create a walkway, or will you duck under the layout? 

Here's a tutorial to help get you going with creating your own custom curved sections.

The first step is to create a start point. I recommend starting with an anchor piece of track. If you make a mistake with a piece of flex track, and it was connected to a New Start Point, the New Start Point will disappear, and you will have to re-create it. In the example below, I am creating a start point based on previously laid track. Select the end of the track so it becomes the active point, and right click or choose from the Edit menu Parallel Start Point. The distance is determined by 1/2 of the difference between centerlines. In this example, AtlasO track has a centerline of 9", so the distance to enter will be 4.5"

The Start Point has been created. Add a piece of track to create an anchor point. I used a 40" straight piece of track, but any track piece will do.

At this point, we need to figure out how long the new sections of track need to be. This is easier than it first looks, as we are merely finding the length of ARC. To find the length of an arc, we will need the angle of the arc and the radius. Since I am creating parallel track, I will break the circle down into sections based on previous track. To form a 90 deg. angle, I had to use 4 pieces of O-108 track giving us 22.5 deg. per section. The track we are creating will be O-126, which has a 63"r

Now that we have the angle and radius, we can input those numbers into the formula to give us the arc length. There are several sources online to help you do the math. I used AJ Design Software.

Open the Toolbox and choose Flextracks modeling in the dropdown window. Place the numbers in the appropriate box. Select flextrack, hit the + Curve to set the track, and then select Fix to set the piece of track in place and to remove the unused portion of track.

This is how the track will look in your space.

Here is another rendition. This on flattens out the track and uses double crossovers.

Stewart,

Thank you again, I have been working with the second plan you sent me because it enables me to still move about the room.  The stairs actually turn to the left and do not interrupt the train layout.  I will try to work on it some more tomorrow and hopefully post something for you to see, I am trying to add a lower single line track after looking at the pictures you sent.

Darren

Stewart has done great work on this plan. I just want to offer the suggestion that it could be modified to a walk-in plan with no duck-unders. Walk-in plans are really a lot more convenient. In this case it requires a reduction in the minimum radius on one mainline circuit from O72 to O63, to maintain an adequate aisle width. I think it's worth considering whether you absolutely need an O72 minimum radius, when a slight compromise could get you the advantage of a walk-in plan.

I make a distinction between minimum radius required for operation, and minimum radius desired for better appearance of long cars and locos on curves. The upper loops on this plan could be placed in tunnels to represent the summit tunnels of the Horseshoe Curve route. The tunnel can be used to conceal the sharper O63 mainline curve. A train-length tunnel also increases the illusion of one train leaving the scene and another train arriving. The tunnels also leave room for more scenery or track above.

I've modified Stewart's plan to show the possibility of a walk-in plan. The inside track of the upper loop is reduced to O63 to maintain an adequate aisle width.  

A third track inside the lower loops provides a good place to stage another train, and a place to change locomotives. The tighter radius would be OK for freight trains. The additional track gives a hint of the Altoona yards. 

There are lots of different possibilities for the space at upper left. I've shown an independent loop and 'village' there.

There are ways to achieve a walk-in plan with O72 minimum curves in this space, but not with the four-track Horseshoe Curve feature requiring double-track end loops. I will be off-line for a while so I'll leave you guys to it.

Ace,

Thank you, this plan is also great, except for one small feature, that you would have no knowledge of unless your standing in the basement. At the lower left portion of the room, there is a 4' wall, which does not permit the ability to enter the layout.  I would have to modify the layout and by doing so it would eliminate the "walk-thru" aisle, but the plans are awesome if I had the available space.

I'm going to keep working with Scarm today, but I really like Stewart's 2nd version of the layout the best, it enables me to walk through the front of the layout and does not cut off the room.  I have tried to re-create that plan on Scarm, with one addition single line track to emulate a coal facility that operated nearby the curve in the early 1900's.

Darren

I overlooked that detail in the previous drawing of your basement space. However, the walk-in plan could be adapted by flipping it vertically and omitting the portion with the independent loop. This is a partial rework, not exact.

Ace,

Now you have given me a lot to think about, thank you, you guys are amazing with this stuff, you put together these layouts quickly and they all look good!

Thank you,

Darren

Hey Ace,

Want to start a layout building company with me?

Darren,

I like Ace's walk-in approach as opposed to the duck under. Even though this is mainly for the kids, I know you will want to run trains too and I'm sure you will have visitors who will want to see the layout. The trade off will be less track laid down. However, you could go with the wider O-126 curves, you can now place a control panel to control the round table area, the layout can be flat and track won't have to be elevated, and the amount of exra track you will have to purchase will be reduced.

I had a similar idea to flip the layout on the Y axis so you could build a lift bridge or gate. I'll draw it up and incorporate Ace's walk-in approach. It should be done before midnight.

I can't wait to see it.  I am off from work tomorrow so I hope to spend some time working with Scarm and the layout.  BTW, don't worry about track, I have 60 - 30" track sections, 20 flextrack sections, 100 - 10" straights, 70 0-72 curves and 20 0-81 curves, not to mention the extra 5.5/4.25/1.75" pieces, and 8 LH 0-72 switches, 8 RH 0-72 switches, 2 LH #4 and 2 RH #4 switches.  I did think about selling the scaletrax and going with a Gargraves/Ross switch combo, but I currently don't see the advantage, especially since I have already used all this track and it has performed flawlessly for me.

Darren

Darren,

Well I got it in 2 hours ahead of schedule!

Some changes of note:

• Minimum curved track is O-63 to make more room for walking, yet retain as much track to run on. If you need O-72 for rolling stock, let me know.
• Horseshoe Curve is O-126, O-117, O-108, O-99.
• Both mainlines can be reversed via the #5 turnouts.
• Added a shunting puzzle for more interest.

Let me know what you think. 

Nice work Stewart !  I enjoy these track planning projects but they can be very time-consuming to work out various details - as you know.

A feature that could enhance this plan is added train storage, perhaps hidden on a lower level. Preferably with no back-up moves required. It could be an optional feature for future expansion, if provision is made for it.

I will be off internet for probably several weeks. Best wishes to Darren on his layout project, whatever form it takes.

I would like to encourage more model rails to try their own hand at layout design with free AnyRail or SCARM. SCARM is my favorite and it has great 3-D imaging. AnyRail may be easier to learn, but the free version of AnyRail is limited to 50 pieces of track, enough for smaller layouts.

Stewart,

If I tell you this was my original design, minus all of the extra details, you'll probably kill me, but it was.  I actually laid this plan out on the floor to see how it looked, but is was with 0-72 and 0-81 curves, which is what I want in order to run the large locomotives I have, but I think we have something to work from with all of the plans you have placed on the table. 

Both of the walk-in plans cut off the basement, somewhat, regardless, I'm going to lay the tracks out on the floor, see what I like best and start from there, I definitely have a lot to work with.

Thank you,

Darren