Atlas-O Santa Fe F-7's: October 2016 York Preview

Hudson J1e posted:

Well, since we got slightly off subject I picked up my Atlas F3 at York yesterday. This was originally a 3 rail model that I converted to 2 rail. I used all Atlas factory parts. I wanted to be exactly as if I had bought in 2 rail. I had Harbor Belt Lines install the ESU Loksound system. He told me that this is the newest system they have. Now, I agree that at take off, 1 and 2 MPH the horizontal drive rules but at higher speeds the horizontal drives (in O scale) make a freaking racket! They are very noisy at high speeds. Both my Atlas SW and my Weaver drives are like this. The twin motor drives break down less but then again they do obscure the cab. So there are pros and cons to both.

Anyway, I have been playing with my Atlas F3 today and it will run at speed step #1 very consistently without stopping and as far as I know it doesn't have the "Keep Alive" circuit installed! It does take off with a very slight jerk which of course the horizontal drives don't do but it isn't excessive. My MTH locomotives cannot do this. I don't remember if my Weaver drives could do this. They are in storage and I don't have access to them. I really like the sounds in this decoder. I bought a video at York called "In Search of the Fs" and the horn on the F3 sounds a lot like the prototype.

I will try to post a video.

I have an older (1980s) Atlas RS1 in HO and it is one of the best drive systems ever made but it was made for Atlas by Kato. I have noticed that the horizontal drives in HO are quiet at high speeds. I guess the HO manufacturers have perfected the horizontal drive system as they can take off nice and slow and still be smooth at high speeds. '

All opinion.

One last thing: David from Harbor Belt Lines did tweak some of the CVs to get the twin motor drive to perform better.

I'm curious if David wired the two motors in series from their parallel configuration.  That was one of the improvements Dan Dawdy did to his RS1s.

When you did the video, were you in 28 speed step mode, or 128?

Regarding tweaking the PWM characteristics, that is one of the beauties of DCC;  you have the flexibility to tweak things to improve a marginal drive.   Never had to do that on an Atlas drive in HO.  

Regards.

Jerry

Jerry, you're right the 28/128 speed step mode could certainly have an effect on it. I will check it tomorrow. As far as wiring the motors in series, at no time was this ever discussed with me so as far as I know they aren't wired in series but I will find out for sure. 

Hot Water posted:

Mike CT posted:

Part of the seminar, on the F-units, was a bound term paper, (brochure), that had all the research that Atlas had/has done on the F units. Everyone who attended the seminar was given this very nice brochure.    They added two sheets. One more or less an index page.  The second/two sided page,  an over all summary/count of all the EMD F units produces.  These pages are easily added to the brochure.   Forty some pages of EMD and Atlas F unit information.   They were still accepting input beyond their research.   At least (4) seminar presentations, each about an hour were done at York.    

Thank you, Atlas/ Jerry Kimble.

Mike CT. 

OK, that is certainly very nice. Now,,,,,,,how did their research miss the fact that the PRR didn't purchase, nor own ANY F7 passenger units?  Maybe the folks at Atlas don't know the difference between F7 units and FP7 units?

Foggy head, I believe there was mention of the FP7 being longer (4 ft) to accommodate the steam generator.  There was also discussion about the shell/frame design, and the structural nature of the shell, limiting modification over the years.  There was in length discussion about Sante Fe and their shops modifying the F's as needed.  I found it interesting that F's had a much better tractive effort than larger, dual motored, six axle, E units.  Informative meeting, IMO.  at least for a modeler. 

Mike CT 

Keystoned Ed posted:

Hot Water is correct about PRR F7 A units not being assigned to passenger service.  The PRR's F7 A units  all were delivered with straight sloping pilots (sometime referred to by modelers as "passenger pilots").  Pennsy F7' we're not assigned to passenger service as they were not geared for passenger service or equipped with steam heat lines.  The PRR did own  40 dual service FP7 A units with high speed 60:17 gearing and steam generators.  They are easy to spot as they were 4' longer than the F7's in order to a accommodate  the steam generators.  The PRR ordered 18 F7 B units with steam generators and 60:17 gearing to mate with the FP7 A units.   The steam generator equipped PRR F7 B units were numbered to match  FP7 A's - not F7 A units.  It is important to note that EMD did not catalog FP7 B units.

Bottom line  - If AtlasO letters their PRR F7  B units in a number series associated with their F7  A units they should not have steam generator details on the car body.   It would be different if AtlasO offered FP7 A units.  As a side note the only PRR F units painted Tuscan red with 5 stripes were two FP7 A-B-A sets.  The remaining FP7 sets were delivered in standard freight service single stripe DGLE scheme.

Ed,

    Thanks for the update, you learn some thing new every day.

JohnB

What was the Atlas reps answer to the painted grill on the Santa Fe F7, are the production models going to have the correct Stainless Steel grill?

DaveJfr0 posted:

I'll post these to help out Atlas O customers with picture requests even though Atlas O decided to ignore all 3 of my emails inquiring about the 2R Southern SD40's (to Rob P, Paul G, and Jerry K).  Jerry was busy seminaring when I came over to the booth, oh well. Hope those who ordered the below like what they see. Might as well rename the post to include all the units.

I did take HD video of the MILW units running around, and may upload that later.

Just a friendly reminder on those MILW unit pictures. Several of us would really like to see them. Thanks.

Let me first state the usual disclaimer.  All of the Atlas O F7A/B units on display at York were pre-production samples sent by the factory right before the show opened.  As such, they are not necessarily representative of the final product.  For example (something not mentioned here to my knowledge), the Erie Lackawanna F7As have incorrectly-decorated number boards.  They are gray but should be maroon to match the body (and to match the artwork we posted earlier).  Sometimes these things happen and that is the exact reason for the factory to send pre-production samples.

Obviously Santa Fe was most discussed here.  The factory erred and decorated the side grilles to match the color of the body beneath the grille.  They didn't do this on any other sample for some reason.  They also painted the remainder of the grille silver, instead of leaving it a natural metallic color.  This grille will be the correct natural color in production, as seen here:

There was also concern about the B-unit ladder being in the incorrect location on all samples.  This was a simple assembly issue at the factory and they will be assembled correctly during actual production.  The samples all had both ladder mounting holes tapped, so it was an easy fix for us:

The drooping front pilot on the A-units appears to be due to a loose mounting screw and we have asked the factory to look into that.  As some have stated here, all 3-Rail A-units will include a fully decorated complete 2-Rail pilot which can be used to improve the appearance of any 3-Rail unit.

Next topic...PRR.  Our PRR F7A and F7B units do represent units that were ordered and used primarily for freight service.  PRR did specify a pilot type known to railfans/modelers as a "passenger pilot".  It was streamlined and often included a coupler cover.  The Milwaukee Road F7As also use this pilot and they were also freight units.  So perhaps we all need to look into the term "passenger pilot" as it is not technically accurate.  In case there is any confusion, our PRR F7As and F7Bs do not include steam generator details on the roof.  There are photos posted in this thread of (I believe) Lionel B-units that do have this detail and I think this might have confused some.  I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned here, but our PRR F7As also include the signature PRR Trainphone antenna detail on the roof.

Finally, these locomotives are in production now and are scheduled to ship in the next container barring any technical difficulties, which do sometimes occur (shocking, I know!).  That container might not be shipping until mid-November, which is why we stated "December/January" delivery for these.  A week or two either way at this time of year can make a big difference!

Rob, thanks for the update and clarification.  I had speculated while reading this thread that the issues with he SF models were as you stated.  These look to be quite stunning models, and I plan to pick some up.

DaveJfr0 posted:

I'll post these to help out Atlas O customers with picture requests even though Atlas O decided to ignore all 3 of my emails inquiring about the 2R Southern SD40's (to Rob P, Paul G, and Jerry K). 

David...I don't recall ever seeing an e-mail from you regarding the SD40s.  Please resend it and I will check to see if it is getting flagged by our (very aggressive) spam filter.

Mr. Pisani,

If my memory is still accurate, the term "passenger pilot" and "freight pilot" for the "F Unit" model line, actually appears that way in the EMD Number 90 Parts Catalog. Thus, back in the day, a customer could order any pilot he desired, including a "snow plow pilot", when ordering F3, F5, F7, F9, FP7, FP9, or FL9.

Rob,

Thanks for the clarifications and update, the SF units are gorgeous models, looking forward to getting my own.

Joe

Mr Pisani,

Jerry did get back to me via email stating that you would address the F7 issues today.   Looks like you already have, so thank you.  You may want to look at the close-up pictures of the F7 SF B units I sent him.

I have an A-B-B-B-A  on Santa Fe set on order and if it is not here by the end of the year I promise not to make a fuss.  I have the complete 12-car California Zephyr to pay for by year end and hopefully an A-B-B-A  set of the WP F3's to cover as well.

Thanks for the response.

Overall they look very nice, and the new fuel tanks look great! 

Hudson J1e posted:

Rocky, I totally agree with you. I did some internet searching last night and I couldn't find any pics of Rio Grande F units with silver trucks. I'm not saying that the Rio Grande didn't have any with silver trucks just that in my short internet search I couldn't find any pictures of them. I did find a bunch of pictures of Rio Grande F units with black trucks so Atlas is correct by using black trucks.

I find it very hard to believe that Santiago's 3rd Rail F7s are incorrect so I must assume that at some point the Rio Grande did have silver trucks on their F7s. Anyone know for sure?

I think that picture shows well weathered trucks, silver? JMO

"Just a friendly reminder on those MILW unit pictures. Several of us would really like to see them. Thanks."

Me too.

Milwrd

Well, the F3's had silver trucks at one time:

Plus, I found this on the Utah Rails site:

"For underframe color, a painting diagram dated January 1952 shows black as only being used on the trucks. Generally, silver trucks were used on units assigned to passenger service and black was used on freight units. In later years, even passenger units received black trucks. In June 1955, the fuel tank sides were changed from aluminum to black. The two steam generator cars (250 and 251) were completed in this scheme when they were converted in 1953 from retired steam locomotive tenders."

Rusty

Thanks so much for your input here Ron P.  Much appreciated!

You guys have certainly created a beautiful product

hibar posted:

I think that picture shows well weathered trucks, silver? JMO

Coupler box and coupler clearly silver. 

Two member have send me emails asking about the close-up pictures of the F7 SF B units that I sent to Jerry Kimble last week.  These pictures show both sides of the Santa Fe B 's and the location of the Indian Head Logo in relation to the car body seams.   Note that it appears that some joker applied lipstick to the second logo.

Jim,

I don't see any photos.

Hot Water posted:

Jim,

I don't see any photos.

Jack, try again.

OK, NOW they show up. I don't think the upper Chief Head logo is correct. I think the lower is more correct, except of course for the "red lips".

But I do. And the logos are different...and I am not talking about just the "lipstick"on the "enjun" either.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

But I do. And the logos are different...and I am not talking about just the "lipstick"on the "enjun" either.

Yes. I know that the font and other coloring are different between the two.  I can not tell you which version was more common or if other versions of the logo existed.  Hot Water did have this logo at one time.  I believe he got his off an alcohol PA.  I am sure he will fill in the blanks.

I don't think that's lipstick.  They appear to be two different Chief logos.  The font is different between the two and the Chief's face appears on the right facing logo to be a "negative" image verses the Chief's face on the second left facing logo.

And lookee here where the Chief logo is placed:

Or, better yet, check out the first B-Unit below.  Might have been a "shops thing..."

Rusty

Jim,

The full size stainless steel emblem that I had, was definitely off an Alco PA, and was much longer than the painted-on logos on the EMD F Units. That PA emblem was something like 8 feet long, and was screwed to the side of the PA "A Units". It seems the Santa Fe forgot to remove all those stainless steel emblems, when they traded all the PA and PB units in to EMD. A work crew was sent out in the "back yard" at the McCoock Plant, to remove all the remaining emblems, crate them up in the Export Shipping Department, and then ship them all back to Topeka, KS. We "retained" the very best one for the wall of the EMD Model Railroad Club!