Maybe sloshing water sounds?
Only tenders l want are accessory replacement coal re fired Vanderbuilts, in three legths.
I have a hard time understanding all this talk about price. We don't know what if any new features these tenders will have. We may think differently once we see there full description.
But more impotently, if the price of something is more then your willing to spend then just don't buy it. Full stop, no need to carry on about price, or materials used to manufacture it. Don't worry Lionel will sell every one they make. Remember these will be build to order items, so no one cares if you like the price or not. Those that are interested will order one.
According to some on this forum, Lionel was never going to sell the first Vision Line offerings at the price point they were asking, but they did!! and, to some of the biggest complainers on this board.
Reading this really makes me thankful I purchased mine when first offered in the late 90s. Sure, they don't have sounds, but it can be added if one so desired. They do have electro couplers and very detailed, and die cast. I purchased two black, two yellow and one grey at the time. I had the MTH BB and some various MTH turbines at the time. Since then, I have added both Challengers (black and greyhound), a Weaver FEF, and two Verandas. Yes, I have seen 35mm video of a U.P. Veranda turbine with an aux pulled behind it. Not certain of the purpose, perhaps simply dead-heading it back? Do not recall what I paid almost 20 years ago, but I could afford it, and very glad I did.
Jesse TCA
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OK… so the aux do not show as well as I thought..... sigh.....
Jesse
My ex wife thought ALL toy trains were overpriced. So she never bought any, nary a one. j
NYC 428 posted:I have a hard time understanding all this talk about price. We don't know what if any new features these tenders will have. We may think differently once we see there full description.
But more impotently, if the price of something is more then your willing to spend then just don't buy it. Full stop, no need to carry on about price, or materials used to manufacture it. Don't worry Lionel will sell every one they make. Remember these will be build to order items, so no one cares if you like the price or not. Those that are interested will order one.
According to some on this forum, Lionel was never going to sell the first Vision Line offerings at the price point they were asking, but they did!! and, to some of the biggest complainers on this board.
Hey! Stop bringing logic and common sense into this discussion. LOL! I understand that the price is higher than previous tenders but like you said without all the information, it's hard to say whether it's worth it to an individual.
I'm with you. The price seems high but there has also been reports of added functionality to the tender. Once I have the details, I'll decide whether it's worth the money to me. There are some people that like to tell you how to spend your money here, fortunately I am able to make my own decisions.
Surefire posted:I imagine it's Lionel speak for they will have the clickity clack and squeal etc sounds.
Goodness, hopefully that won't include the incessant banging like the box cars for those of you that can afford them.
I think there are as many posters complaining about those complaining as there are those complaining. This is a DISCUSSION forum and there is nothing at all wrong or inappropriate with someone discussing the prices of trains in general or any specific item cost. if some folks want to fantasize that these new tenders have some hidden function that makes them worth $500, have at it.
There is only one function a tender could have that would make it worth that much to me. A motor. Give it a motor and make it a pusher. NOW, you're talkin'
These are going to be such low volume sellers that Lionel has two choices: (1) make 'em and price them accordingly for a tiny run with fixed overhead or (2) not make 'em at all. It's not rocket science. Unless you think they are stupid, they are going to price things to stay in business through viable margins, while trying to hold the line on costs. Anything else would be self-destructive. If the volumes were 5-10 times higher, the prices would be considerably lower, you can bet on that. They do have competition for a good bit of their product line, so that keeps prices as reasonable as they can be. The competition isn't doing much new tooling, so their prices have been more moderate, but still up.
Hot Water posted:sinclair posted:They are basically an engine without a motor. They do have sounds, the same sounds you hear from the VL BB tender, as well as special dialog for refueling. This was all listed on the Lionel shop site. And I did choke when I saw the price. But I also remember that they will be lower in price from the big dealers. My problem is I can't decide if I want to get the black one (Which I still think Lionel should have made when the VL BB came out.), or should I get the matching yellow one to the yellow one I already have from the VL BB release. I know I'll always run both with my VL BB, so the question is should the aux tenders match, or would it be okay to have a black and yellow one?
For what it's worth, the UP did not, and doesn't have any "black" auxiliary water tenders for the excursion steam locomotive fleet. They are both yellow.
I know both of UP's current aux tenders are yellow. But I won't be pulling excursions most of the time. I'll run them behind my VL BB pulling reefers most of the time. Not very prototypical, but my railroad just doesn't have very many water stops on the main.
What I'm thinking of doing is getting the black one and then swapping the bodies of the older and newer one. This way I can have a black one right behind the VL BB and the one with the extra sounds be spaced at least a car from the fuel tender for some sound separation.
For those wanting to make comparisons:
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texastrain posted:For those wanting to make comparisons:
It's hard to make comparisons when we can't see the new offerings and what the features are until next week. Personally if the rumored sounds are in them and they add a force coupler that would go a ways in the price point. Again I'll wait and see what is all in them.
The last UP Jim Adams Flag tender was $379.99 without sounds.
MartyE posted:texastrain posted:For those wanting to make comparisons:
It's hard to make comparisons when we can't see the new offerings and what the features are until next week. Personally if the rumored sounds are in them and they add a force coupler that would go a ways in the price point. Again I'll wait and see what is all in them.
The last UP Jim Adams Flag tender was $379.99 without sounds.
From what I heard and saw today at my local hobby store:
Legacy, railsounds, freight sounds, electro-coupler, rear light...
MartyE posted:texastrain posted:For those wanting to make comparisons:
It's hard to make comparisons when we can't see the new offerings and what the features are until next week. Personally if the rumored sounds are in them and they add a force coupler that would go a ways in the price point. Again I'll wait and see what is all in them.
The last UP Jim Adams Flag tender was $379.99 without sounds.
Maybe price increase is to make sure the flag on the Jim Adams is printed in the correct direction on both sides. The $380 version had the flag printed in the wrong direction on "engineer's" side.
The "older" water tenders have excellent detail with hose lines and connections, valves, air lines, etc. They come with TMCC for the rear light and when running as a train with one ID number with engine makeup, electro rear coupler, and if one does not have discretionary funds, such as I in retirement, they are all one needs at a much lower cost. All sounds are great, have added RS to many MTH, Weaver and Williams engines. As for a water tender sounds??? What I would like to see/hear in sounds would be the "clank-clank" of drive rods when a steamer is rolling along. Listen to the live sounds of many steam engines in videos and if there is no over-talk, and the sound is real, not over dubbed, you will hear it. Or, if one has witnessed live running, as I have, this is also apparent. Not always, but when high balling, you can hear it clear at times. That is what would be a great sound to have, IMHO...….
Jesse TCA
Oh, and I posted pics of the 2001 versions I have so others can make a comparison when pics of newer version is available. I, too, wish to see what they are like. Not that I will be spending that to acquire one, just to see. As stated, the detail on the 2001 versions is excellent. Very glad I did get them when I did.
Jesse
MartyE posted:It's hard to make comparisons when we can't see the new offerings and what the features are until next week. Personally if the rumored sounds are in them and they add a force coupler that would go a ways in the price point. Again I'll wait and see what is all in them.
The last UP Jim Adams Flag tender was $379.99 without sounds.
Unfortunately without 2 way communication I would assume a force coupler is unlikely to work with a locomotive on an AUX tender.
Not exactly sure how the force coupler on the Niagara tender works with the locomotive as far as smoke output and sound. Maybe @Alex M can answer that since he had it to examine.
Just a thought; you don't suppose that Lionel has developed new tooling in order to reflect the CURRENT appearance of the two UP yellow auxiliary water tenders? Since the UP completely rebuilt both tanks some years ago, they no longer look like any of the various Lionel & MTH UP auxiliary water tenders offered for many years.
So the response was deleted about the drawbar being the source of the labor gauge before I could respond about the "Force Coupler" Reviewing the literature it does say drawbar.
A force coupler feature which will
increase the labor effects on the
locomotive based on drawbar pull.
So I guess that makes sense. It does also reference "Force Coupler Feature" but the drawbar seems to make more sense. Anyways I imagine the AUX tender couldn't do this functionality. I bet Dave Olson could tell us definitively but alas he's been understandably absent as of late.
As for Force Coupler, it could be done, but not at a price point I bet people are willing to pay. The tender would need basically the Cab-2 guts in it and a microprocessor. As the pull on the coupler changes, it would then change the labor setting for the locomotives of the train, doing the same thing you do on your Cab-2 remote. And since it's a headless Cab-2, it'll know which locomotives are in the train it is a part of, so it'd know what to change the labor setting on. (Lionel, if you use my idea, just contact me to ask which road and color I want from the 1st offering and I'll be happy. 
)
To have the "current" design/style of the aux tender is only applicable for those running the excursion trains. True, there are many that do, have reviewed my video of the visit UP Challenger made to the Chicago-Milwaukee area in 2001 with intention of acquiring properly named cars and make that consist, myself. But, that was years ago, before Lionel produced the correct consists. If one is running older period consists with an aux tender, then the earlier versions are what they need to be correct and "prototypical". There is a need for both, depending upon the time and style you run.
Jesse TCA
The new Challengers have Bluetooth. You would just need Bluetooth in the tender to transmit the signal to the engine.
Pete
MartyE posted:It's hard to make comparisons when we can't see the new offerings and what the features are until next week. Personally if the rumored sounds are in them and they add a force coupler that would go a ways in the price point. Again I'll wait and see what is all in them.
Didn't someone already note that these things are nothing more than a boxcar?
It doesn't matter what goes inside of them, they still aren't worth the $250 that they started off at years ago!
As for this "force coupler" thing, that should be a feature of the regular tender to begin with!
Big Jim posted:MartyE posted:It's hard to make comparisons when we can't see the new offerings and what the features are until next week. Personally if the rumored sounds are in them and they add a force coupler that would go a ways in the price point. Again I'll wait and see what is all in them.
Didn't someone already note that these things are nothing more than a boxcar?
It doesn't matter what goes inside of them, they still aren't worth the $250 that they started off at years ago!As for this "force coupler" thing, that should be a feature of the regular tender to begin with!
Maybe I should wait to see how much your's are when you make them. I might save a few bucks and it will have "force coupler" built in. I assume you will have sounds, Legacy, and all the goodies? I won't defend Lionel's pricing but I would like to get a good look at it before I make a judgement. At $379 for the previous issues, $100 seems a bit steep for just adding sound but then again who's paying MSRP anymore.
BTW just having some fun with you Jim!
Why all the fuss about the price. Lionel is not stupid. They know they have a small market of hobbyist that can afford this offering and will purchase without a blink of the eye. Not everybody Is willing and that includes me but thats ok because I simply don’t care about an auxiliary tender. Plenty of other items in the catalog that I’ll purchase. From day one this has been an expensive hobby so we must choose our purchases accordingly. Perhaps they should offer a premium item catalog and a separate traditional catalog to help eliminate sticker shock. Think about the late eighties when we purchased our first thousand dollar engine. I thought I was nuts but since then I’ve been nuts many many times over.
Hey Marty,
Y'all can have all of the fun you want. I was just trying to point out the obvious...the Emperor has new clothes!
Now, how much did you pay for that "Hot Box Reefer" with all of the bells and whistles? $139.99-$149.99 MSRP?
Big Jim posted:Hey Marty,
Y'all can have all of the fun you want. I was just trying to point out the obvious...the Emperor has new clothes!Now, how much did you pay for that "Hot Box Reefer" with all of the bells and whistles? $139.99-$149.99 MSRP?
$55 at York.
romiller49 posted:From day one this has been an expensive hobby .....
It doesn't have to be!
K line, industrial rail, rail King / MTH when they first came out proved that. Among others.
MartyE posted:Big Jim posted:Hey Marty,
Y'all can have all of the fun you want. I was just trying to point out the obvious...the Emperor has new clothes!Now, how much did you pay for that "Hot Box Reefer" with all of the bells and whistles? $139.99-$149.99 MSRP?
$55 at York.
Then, that is what you should be paying for an Aux. Tender!
Jesse TCA
texastrain posted:For information / comparison purposes:Jesse TCA
Since your photos appear to be all of the same car, just what are you comparing them to?
They are for showing the detail of the first Aux tender issue (same on all colors aux) and for comparison to the newer aux when finally released. I have no doubt the new tenders are excellent.... but for what price? That is determined by each of us in our own way.
Jesse TCA
Aux water tanks over-priced? YES, I agree!
isn't everything in this hobby overpriced? It is what it is, deal with it or find another hobby.
I think there are as many posters complaining about those complaining as there are those complaining. This is a DISCUSSION forum and there is nothing at all wrong or inappropriate with someone discussing the prices of trains in general or any specific item cost. if some folks want to fantasize that these new tenders have some hidden function that makes them worth $500, have at it.
What Elliot said. 
Curt
An efficient, real railroad would use a tank car as an auxiliary water tender. The only cost would be to buy and install a submersible electrically operated water pump and add the electrical hook up and some hose to a railroad owned and cleaned tank car.
The cost for a modeler to replicate the tank car as an auxiliary water tender would be very low for most of us also. As low as just placing a tank car from your herd after the current tender.
Charlie
Choo Choo Charlie posted:An efficient, real railroad would use a tank car as an auxiliary water tender.
Unusual but some railroads did just that. Must, however used some sort of modified steam locomotive tender.
The only cost would be to buy and install a submersible electrically operated water pump and add the electrical hook up and some hose to a railroad owned and cleaned tank car.
Not necessary, as the gravity feed worked/works just fine with 3" to 4" diameter hoses connecting the auxiliary to the main tender.
The cost for a modeler to replicate the tank car as an auxiliary water tender would be very low for most of us also. As low as just placing a tank car from your herd after the current tender.
Well, that would depend on which railroad you are trying to model. Such would NOT be prototypical for the N&W.
Charlie
Scott, Let's go back to basic economics. How many auxiliary water tenders would you buy if those now on the market (at what you consider to be "...way over priced") were on the shelf at $100? How many would you buy at $200? At $300? John in Lansing, ILL
Early in its fantrip carrier, Frisco 1522 used a tank car as a canteen until an ex-IC canteen was secured:
Rusty
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