Bachmann's New "Bluetooth" electronics

Jack,  I don't see that those of us who are less than enthused are missing anything.  I see several posts that have addressed concerns/questions that have been posted.

 

I don't even what to get into a discussion is an smart phone or tablet a remote.

 

Tell me if I'm wrong, but what I understand is:

• that Bachmann will have new boards, albeit ones which are Bluetooth compatible. The Bluetooth ap will only work on Bachmann's Williams trains that have been so equipped. 
• Any other manufacturers trains will have to have new Bachmann boards installed (pulling out existing command boards if so equipped.) to run the Bachmann ap
• Previously manufactured Williams trains will have to be upgraded with these new boards installed to run with the Bachmann ap.
• I don't see how it would be possible to run a DCS/TMCC/Legacy command engine, at the same time, on the same track as a Williams train running the Bluetooth ap.
• Has Bachmann applied for a patent to run trains with a Bluetooth ap? If so, will they let other manufacturers use the patent?

This is why the announced Bluetooth system seems like yet another in a string of command systems available to run O gauge trains, and while this might revolutionize Bachmann's Williams trains, I don't see it as revolutionizing the O gauge hobby.

 

Jim

Jim, this could be the technology that renders TMCC and DCS OBSOLETE.  NO command base to buy. NO handset to buy. NO worries about track signal or star wiring or ANY wiring for that matter.  Imagine if, instead of throwing away your Cab1 and buying a Legacy controller,  (a cycle you're a fool if you think won't repeat down the road), you just installed a new patch from the app store.  What if, instead of buying new PS3 circuit boards to have the latest functionality like quillable whistle,  you just installed the newest locomotive software - from the app store? What if the control software had a real-time dispatcher view of your layout,  allowing you to monitor the location and vitals of every engine AT A GLANCE and also throw switches and operate accessories from the same touchscreen?  The only people who will scoff at this are the ones heavily invested in either DCS or Legacy.  The days of physical remotes are numbered.

It does look to me like both Lionel and MTH are also moving toward 'Apps' to run their equipment. I do think the 'new' remote will be the iphone or ipad or other smart device. I really don't see anyone investing in development of another 'physical' remote specifically for Legacy or DCS. I think those days have passed. So it appears they are all on the same page as far as the Apps go. Now for getting power and signal to the track, that could be a different story, but it will be interesting to see who comes up with what.

What if the control software had a real-time dispatcher view of your layout,  allowing you to monitor the location and vitals of every engine AT A GLANCE and also throw switches and operate accessories from the same touchscreen?

 

I'm curious how the BT software and board installed in the locomotive allows you to monitor the location on the layout of the locomotive.  Can you explain the mechanism of that feature to me?

 

Now, the Lionel LCS actually does have that capability now on the iPad using the sensor tracks.  I can operate the locomotives, throw switches, operate accessories, and even check the current switch status, all on the screen. 

 

Pretty hard to see how position sensing will work without position feedback on the layout, are you equipping every locomotive with super accurate GPS?

"The only people who will scoff at this are the ones heavily invested in either DCS or Legacy. "

 

Not true, and not scoffing.  Not everyone wants a virtual control panel or keyboard.  Some like the tactile feel and feedback of a real remote or keyboard.  I don't like using the keyboard on my iPhone or iPad, so I use dictation for the former and a Bluetooth physical keyboard for the latter if I've got anything much to say.  The 2.4 GHz radio control of LionChief and LionChief Plus is a time tested and rock solid connection that could be used in the same way as Bluetooth if anyone cares to exploit the off the shelf hardware as Lionel has done. There is absolutely nothing special about Bluetooth in this regard. In each case someone needs to develop the firmware or software  to control model railroad specific functions. 

 

We should remember that not everyone has or wants a smart phone or tablet, or knows how to download apps, as simple as that is.  One could  reasonably argue that when you buy a LionChief or LionChief Plus loco or set,  everything you need is there, and there is no expectation that you already own a fairly expensive and, for some people, complicated device that enables you to use the items you've purchased.  An iPad or Android tablet costs as much as DCS or Legacy, so you're not going to buy one just to operate your Williams loco .  A smartphone costs more, in terms of actual contract costs. I know quite a few people who have neither a smartphone or tablet.

The problem with O gauge is that there is no standardization.  This is the true drawback to this hobby.  Having to have DCS/Legacy/LionChief and now Bluetooth is cost prohibitive. I do not think that O gauge will grow because of the technology silos of the train manufactures.  Why wouldn't they team up and create one standard.   

Great features... but it would require Bachmann to develop and sell O gauge BT enabled track sensors and switch machines.

 

I think Bachmann is implementing this "system" as a relatively inexpensive way to add remote control of direction and speed, and sound, to locomotives they sell in future - and nothing more. As a bonus, the way they are implementing it (with use of a smartphone or tablet as the remote) also happens to appeal to the younger demographic they are hoping to sell these products to.

Brian,

 

I don't know if I fall into the scoffing camp, but I'm still not convinced that Bachmann's app is they greatest thing in O gauge modeling.

 

I can see the value in being able to use a phone or tablet to run a train with an app that can be downloaded from the app store.  I think this would be a fun way to run a train around a layout, especially a Christmas one.  I also agree that it would be a simple way to have software updated.

 

But if the app only runs future Williams trains, then its potential seems somewhat limiting to me.

 

I'm a conventional operator, but as I already have several 3rd Rail, Atlas, and K-Line engines with TMCC, I will likely take the plunge and buy a Legacy remote early next year.  I don't see anything in the Bachmann announcement that makes me second thoughts.

 

Jim

Jack, what was that saying about "Old Dogs" ? :-)

 

Now what would you guys think when we have Lipo powered trains running on unpowered, unblocked track with a camera on the engine sending a live feed to a Ipad that has a workable engine cab with a front view window?

 

Crazy? Nope it is being tested in HO gauge now.

But will it work with my Commodore 64?

Before anyone declares this as the end all be all future of control systems, remember that the sound does not come from the train. It comes from the device running the app. At least for now. This is a good low-cost move for Bachmann, but I highly doubt someone that enjoys Legacy RailSounds or ProtoSounds will be willing to listen to the sounds of their trains through speakers that are smaller than many HO engines carry.

 

Folks seem to be putting this in the wrong category. IMHO this is a step above conventional control. An inexpensive way for Bachmann to differentiate themselves a bit, but not direct competition to the 2 major players in the industry. It should be great for their trains, but don't look for it to take over the market as the next standard.

It goes without saying that we are all speculating.

 

As far as sound goes, the app could easily send the sound to a wireless speaker which could provide sound superior to anything inside any O gauge train.

 

Also, the engagement of gaming programmers by Bachmann is tapping into a very deep pool of talent, much larger than the manufacturers have had access to previously.

 

Again, fun to speculate and look forward to. The proof of concept will be clearer when the first HO models hit the tracks

True. I've been an advocate of an under table subwoofer to enhance low end for a long time. I built a prototype with Bluetooth components that did just that. You still need the high and mid range frequencies to come from the engines or it just sounds like someone playing a recoding of a train in the background. SoundTraxx has had a system called SurroundTraxx for a few years now that uses multiple speakers under the layout to try to get the sound to follow the trains around. Pretty complex system and I don't know that it ever caught on.

 

It will be interesting to see where this goes, but I really doubt Bachmann will expand on it much. It is a great low cost system for their line of trains. Competition is good. Innovation is good. Trains are good

Even if you have a smartphone, and I have one and a tablet, that doesn't mean I want to run my trains with it.  I'd still rather have the remote with real controls.  In any case, I'm not seeing this replace all the existing command systems in the foreseeable future.

 

"It seems like we are at a point where almost every 5-year old in America knows how to use an ipad. "

 

Obviously a comment from someone under the age of 50 . I would note that five year olds have very little purchasing power.  The market for O gauge trains has been mostly folks in middle age and older.  So for the next decade or so, the bulk of market will remain the folks who are LEAST likely to have a smartphone and tablet .  If Bachmann wants to ignore the folks who haven't adopted these technologies, they are ignoring the folks with more dollars of discretionary income than the 5-30 year old crowd who are also most likely to own smartphones and tablets. How many folks are using their smartphone or tablet to control their home security system, thermostats, lawn mower, televisions and radios?  Not many from what I can see.

I don't have a smart phone, but we do have an ipad. I have not tried running anything with either one, but I agree with gunrunnerjohn, I like the DCS and Legacy remotes and will probably still use them even if I do get the ipad apps for each of those systems. It's an added expense, but I actually like the two system idea, it kind of puts some variety into your train operations. I would also like to possibly try a DCC system someday.

Gentlemen,

   I am with Guns on this one, I will wait and see how the engineering develops before

doing any kind of investment, although it looks interesting, I do not know if its owner mandatory.

PCRR/Dave

 

Hence the reason we are starting with HO scale....

That's the system I want Charlie. Except the LiPo part. I fly RC planes and I use LiPos. They aren't the safest most foolproof batteries out there. O scale would do just fine with LiFePo4.

Hi Jack (Bucks Co),

 

     I really like the Bluetooth idea, and I don't like change and I am not a gadget guy.  Young people are as skilled with touch screens as we baby-boomers are with buttons, keys and knobs. Hats off to Bachmann for their initiative, and for keeping things fun and affordable!

 

      I look forward to having a complete control panel on a touch-screen.  I hope Bachmann will make a stand-alone board for us tinkerers who would want to put Bluetooth in our homemade stuff.  Can't wait to equip an O27 handcar with Bluetooth!  (Figure the first HO boards would handle the motor demands of the small motorized O27 items.)   A Bluetooth controlled AC transformer (with bell and whistle features) would also be a winner for me!

 

Good Luck, Bachmann!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Thanks!!!!!

 

Take care, Joe.

 

 

 

This system by Bachmann might be worth having but for now I am going to see how things turn out with the progress of it.

To use this system the operator must have a Blue Tooth-4 phone and a Blue Tooth capable engine to receive the signal and if I am reading things correctly at even $50.00 an engine for a fleet of 10 engines that will be $500.00 just for the updated circuit boards or chips. I am not the most tech savvy guy but I know it takes a couple of seconds to select stuff on a smart phone, don't know about Blue Tooth, but you may have accidents unless going at a snail's pace speed.

I don't see this taking off that well for now, but that's my 2 cents on the subject.

 

For now I am staying with the DCS system I have and like Howie Mandel asks of his guests on his show a couple years ago, "That's my final answer!"

 

Lee Fritz

A Bluetooth control system seems like an attractive feature. According to what I have read, 80% of the adult online population owns a Smartphone. Just put your engine on the track power up and go to your smart phone application; nothing extra to buy!!! Now if Bachmann was clever they would also offer a Bluetooth remote controller, then they'll have all bases covered for the old fashioned folks.

The folks who are poo-pooing the new technology are not the target market that Bachmann is looking for. They, and presumably the other manufacturers as well, are looking to expand the market for model trains and whatever it takes to do that, they'll do. Lionel, trying it with RC control (LC & LC+) and now Bachmann with this Bluetooth system, are both using the KISS method with their ideas. More importantly, it seems to be a lower cost way of operating. Get 16-18 volts to the rails and the control signals from a handheld device to the train(s) and you're off to the races. Naturally, all those who have mega $ invested their equipment aren't going to want to change horses mid-stream, but again, that's not their prime focus.

 

I'm still running my trains conventionally mainly because I've never felt that Legacy or DCS was cost effective, but if Bachmann, or anyone else comes up with a lower cost and better way of doing things, I'll be all for it.

 

And close to 80% of that number use them while driving

 

Just leave the conventional operation in there.

 Why? So I don't have to buy a phone I won't really use, and can't use well without a special glove anyhow, because these touch screens cant see my fingers well enough.

In my hands, and some others, touch screen sucks. I need a light matrix.

 

Exactly!

 

Adults like me, under the age of Geritol, like connectivity capabilities with every electronic device offered.

 

And, the next generation, like my 3-year old, can't understand what its like to not have the capability to point her finger on the iPad and watch her videos on the Smart TV.

 

So not having this technology is hurting their ROI for after the dinosaurs die off.

 

 

I just went to the TigerDirect website and found an $80 Asus Android tablet, with WiFi, Bluetooth, camera, etc.

 

Asus, from Tawain, is/was one of the top tier motherboard manufacturers for PCs, and and manufacturer a variety of products now, including laptops.

 

So that is less than Charlies price on a new CAB1L.

 

The prices are low and are only going to get lower.

 

At some point model train manufacturers will have to ask, why should we make a controller when these devices with the right software are 'good enough'.

 

Hi Folks,

 

    I built my own Bluetooth controller with the PicAxe microcontroller and a $5 Bluetooth transceiver. Then I got a $19 battery powered Bluetooth speaker http://www.walmart.com/ip/i.So...er-Licorice/39364365 for on-board sound effects and teamed them up in the video below. Sometimes the apps are a little sluggish, as you'll notice in the vid.  I can be about 30-35 ft. away from the speaker and it doesn't cut out, provided there aren't any walls in the way.

 

 

I used a $50 Bluetooth 4.0 tablet http://www.walmart.com/ip/Next...B-Quad-Core/38334381 with 2 free apps, one for the Bluetooth transceiver and a different one for the sound board:

 

http://www.roboremo.com/

 

https://play.google.com/store/...eator.free&hl=en

 

For info on the way I did the on-board PicAxe controller, my page:

http://www.josephrampolla.com/PicAxeBluetooth.html

 

I had great difficulty fitting the control circuit inside the trailing ore car, so I haven't gotten any photos of it all inside, yet.  Once I do, I'll add them to the page.  One thing Bachmann and BlueRail Trains have done is kept the control board very tiny, something DIY guys like me can't do.

 

I'm pushing the big 60 and I like touch screens, but there needs to be a wrist strap to keep you from dropping the tablet or smartphone.

 

Take care, Joe.

 

P.S.  The prices on these things change frequently; the speaker is cheaper and the tablet is $10 more than I paid 2 months ago. J.

Fantastic Joe!  The future of trains looks a lot brighter !JohnP

this says it all!

Nice work.

Thanks for the compliments!   Dry fingers/skin makes the capacitance touch screen less responsive, but usually there isn't a problem for me.  

 

This video demonstrates the Bluetooth project a little better.  It took longer for the tablet to connect here because I just turned it on and it was updating in the background.

 

 

http://www.josephrampolla.com/PicAxeBluetooth.html

 

Take care, Joe.

 

 

 

I run TMCC/DCS, which works well for me.  I'm too far into the hobby now to even consider any new operating system.  I'll pass.

I also have Legacy and DCS and plan to stick with them. The big selling point with the Bachmann system is that all you need it a smart phone and you are ready to run. No additional hardware required as with Legacy/TMCC/DCS. My problem is not having a smart phone and not really wanting to get one due to the additional expense per month over my 'flip' phone that I hardly ever use.

 

You can purchase a phone or tablet without subscribing to a cellular service.  Apps can be installed either via memory card or via transfer from a connection between your home computer and the device.

I should have added that I have an ipad-2 with wifi only. I have no idea if it has Bluetooth, but probably does? I don't use that much either, my wife thought we should have one and all she does is text my daughter with it.

 

I am kind of funny in a way I guess (others would give differing opinions, I'm sure), but I really like the electronic boards, all the inexpensive ebay items from Asian suppliers, DCS and Legacy and things like that. But when it comes to ipads, iphones, and stuff like that, my interests drop off dramatically. Go figure. I must be deficient in some vital smart device hormone or something? Or maybe it's that I don't like devices that are smarter than me?  I also like computers, desktops that is.

Bluetooth is great and cheap but if they are to do it right they need to build their future reverse units with the ability to just plug in and go when upgrading.  I believe they are still using the old reverse units with the TB Plus so maybe it is time to retool the reverse units to. The reverse units would be firmware based and could also be upgraded. Bluetooth is here to stay and for the many out there that cannot afford Legacy or DCS would be great.  This may help all those people that an only afford old technology available to them and give them a chance at some command control.  Most of us have computers in our pockets so this isn't like trying to go to Mars or splitting atoms.  The only thing is it would take dedication from Bachmann to make it happen in O scale.