Ballast

Hey Jim, I know alot of people will take an elmers glue mixed with water and dribble over the entire ballasted area. Dries clear and holds the ballast in place. I know some prefer to spray it, over the bottle technique but this way you can get it down in between the rails and ties without having a mess over the track.

I did a mixture of one part Elmers glue and eight parts water and sprayed it on the ballast.  It's been keeping my ballast in place now for over five years.  I did not spray it on the ballast between the rail ties.

Jim, Lance has given you the nutshell answer to your question.  But, There are multiple posts, videos and small books about Ballasting.  Do a forum search using the word ballast.  Also go to youtube.com and search for model train track work videos.  You will be delightfully surprised by the information your search provides.

I have used the wet water and 50/50 wet water/glue mix on layouts since the mid '80s .

It has served me well...big layouts now dismantled but used the same system on my Gargraves track in the small attic layout.

I place a plastic cover under the layout to protect boxes,carpet,etc, and liberally apply wet water followed by the wet water/ glue mix. I use the mustard and ketchup $1 squeeze bottles to dribble on. I prefer Brennan's Better Ballast which matches up well with N.C. regional gravel.

My 0-5-0 ballast machine pictured. 

In the Service Yard I bring the "ground" up to tie-top level with 5/16' foam board and use Brennan's dark greasy ballast.

I do not recommend using ballast with out gluing it in place. As you surmised, it would be impossible to vacuum loose ballast. As long as you use white glue and water as an adhesive, you can remove it by simply re-wetting it with water.  

I do not glue my ballast down.

I use Brumes Rubber Ballast and just lay it down along the track ties and road bed.

If I want to change something add a turnout or make a repair I have a small shop vac and I just simply vacuum up the ballast in the area that I need to do the change or repair.

Occasionally you have to straight up the ballast along the roadbed just for appearance.

Been doing it this way for 20 years and I haven't had any problems, knock on wood!!!!!

Just the answer I was looking for. I'm fairly picky about dust accumulation and vacuum about once per month. If water and glue will keep the ballast -- for the most part -- in place, that's good news.

Dennis,

Can you do custom colors? I live in So Cal and the local freight line ballast has a distinctive rust red color I really like.

Dewey,I was under the impression that it had to be sprayed with isopropyl before you can use the glue mix.Are you saying just wet it down with water first?Nick

 Dewey said "wet water" not just plain water. Wet water is water with a bit of dish soap (or similar) in it. It acts as a surfactant and helps the glue solution to flow freely. Alcohol might do the same thing (I never tried), but wet water is much cheaper.

Nick

I make up "wet water" which is about 3 drops of Palmolive DW liquid per quart of tap water. Application of the wet water enables the dribble of 50/50 glue mix of white glue and wet water to more effectively penetrate the ballast.

i clean glue mix off the rails after ballasting with alcohol.

I have always glued my ballast down with Elmer's white glue. I do a 50/50  glue to water and then I add some dawn to the mix, shake it to mix and dribble it on....................Paul

Saturate with wet water then use the glue mixture. I use 1 part white glue to 2 parts water. 50/50 works but isn't necessary.

As far as using alcohol and water as a wetting agent, I'm not a fan. Dish soap works extremely well, doesn't smell and is inexpensive. Water is cheap and readily available. I've never had any problems in over 30 years.

Scott, I sent you an email.

This is the way I have done it as well...My ballast isn't going anywhere.

Jeff Davis

50/50 water and Elmer's glue on all my ballast.

I vacum right over it and it holds just fine.

I applied mine with a 50.50 mixture of white glue and water.  I watched this video series.  This teaches you everything you ever need to know.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhBhA_4LLg0

This is totally amazing.  A ballast-related thread that actually achieved a consensus!!

Hi Lee,

The series of 3 videos you refer to above are great.  The application of the ballast is quite precise and looks great but it appears it would be a slow task.  My layout has 200 feet of track.  Maybe you or another forum member could give me an estimate of about  how many feet could be done in an hour once a person becomes reasonably adapt at the process.

Jim Lawson

DEFINITELY GLUE IT DOWN JUST GET ONE GRANULE CAUGHT IN THE GEARS AND OH BOY!!

Don't look at it that way. It's not hard and it doesn't take as long as you might think. Start working on the areas that would be the hardest to get to first. And, you don't have to completely ballast the entire layout before moving on to something else. On a large layout, I do scenery on one area at a time and simply ballast the area I happen to be working on. Regardless, just ballast about 10 feet of track at a time and enjoy the process!

I've never actually timed putting ballast down and then added a glue mix by dropper (I like to use a plastic transfer pipett), but it's not a task to get your OCD fired up over on exactitude.  I'd think it's a few minutes per foot to spread, tidy up, and then glue down, and then move on.  Might have to re-visit 2-3 times with more glue mix, but this not something to get obsessive about.  The only areas requiring the investiture of serious care are switches and as long as you don't glue down any moving parts and keep those operational, they should not be a problem.

There is a small device that supposedly speeds up application, but while I bought one I went back to the method just like in the videos I posted a link to earlier - it seemed flexible and easier.  

I could do ten feet an hour if I organized and planned well.  I would put ballast in a cup, our it along the rails for about a foot or so, and use a paint brush to smooth it out, etc.  Once I had it in place,  I would spray the alcohol mixture in it with a spray bottle (I think it once held widnwo cleaner) and then pour/dribble a 50/50 white-glue/water mixture on it, making sure that I saw it seeping out the power edges.  (It is best to err by using to much, not too little glue mixture).  When it had dried (a day) I would come back with a brigthboy eraser and use it to remove any glue on the rails.  

I had about 330 feet to do.  I left about fifty feet that one can't see well without ballast.  Working on and off, it took about a week and a half. 

It takes both more ballast and more glue than you expect - I'd make sure I had plenty on hand. 

Note:  The Fort Pitt High-Railers have done a lot of ballast work, using Brummy's crum rubber ballast and white glue. Even using all of the techniques mentioned in this thread, the white glue/glue water mix tends to bridge the top layer of the ballast and never gets to the bottom, either the train table or the cork road bed. As the modules are moved and re-assembled the ballast will come loose in chunks, requiring attention and more glue. 

IMO.  I found that mechanically working the ballast and glue mixture with your fingers between the ties forces the glue further down in the mix.  The wet water thing helps, but tends to dilute the glue, further, making it less effective.  We use a lot of white glue, enough so that a module when glued looks like a sea of white, and floor clean-up as the glue/water mix drips through the few holes in the module, is a fair amount of work.  Also cleaning the track of white glue after application is another project that takes some time. IMO.  The finished ballast, when dry, should be hard, not spongy, if well attached. 

Best wishes all, and take your time, the first time.  

Mike CT

I can't speak to rubber ballast but with crushed granite, if the ballast is coming loose in chunks then the glue is not completely being dispersed throughout the ballast. That is the problem not the the glue to water ratio. In fact, I have always used a mix of 1 part white glue to 2 parts water. This is after saturating the ballast with wet water. To this date I have never had crumbling ballast. Remember, dispersal is the key.

There could be something else going on with rubber ballast that keeps the glue from penetrating which allows it to break apart.

The transportable modular layout is a worse case scenario.  1/2 of all modules are transported either upside down or on edge, the attachment system has to be complete/thorough.

Indeed.  Most home layouts will never be faced with such stress, pending earthquakes or demolition.  It does however seem from your description as though your gluing efforts are not achieving thorough penetration.

Be liberal in applying the wet water before applying the glue mix.. Dribble it on until it seeps out at the edges of the ballast profile.

As Dennis advises above "saturate...".

You might be able to merge the glue mix with the wet water and save yourself some effort,

To buy or a ballast hunt. I have always thought after the fact to take with me on drive vacations a screen strainer and plastic bags to collect material. I see there is usually enough laying on the  sides of the road where a cut has been made and the fine loose material has piled up in spots just waiting to be collected. I know I should just keep the tools in the car. Knowing that I need to make a 1000 mile trip to Oregon to hunt and gather material to match what I am trying to represent.

Phill

For a variety of reasons I would not recommend this at all.  You really need to do what Dewey recommended, pour the wet water on first to get a really good purchase for the glue mix - you do not want it pooling on top or dripping down the sides 'cause it won't seep in.  

Mixing the wet water into the glue makes the glue mix much less effective at its job, too.  

And like Dewey says, you only know you have applied enough when you see the glue mix seeping out the bottom edges of the ballast.  

Worked perfectly fine for me, but then maybe having a good understanding of how to make up solutions and solvents to achieve one's goals is an advantage. 

Dennis,

I'm at this crossroad myself and was wondering about glue, no glue or partially glued. Here's what I mean by partially glued. In one of Peter Riddle's books he recommends gluing the ballast along the outside rails but not between them. Has anyone tried this method?

Mike

I've had great success with 50/50 mix isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol and white glue. The alcohol serves as a surfactant/wetting agent and dries much quicker than water/glue mix due to alcohol's faster evaporative rate. One step process.

In one of Peter Riddle's books he recommends gluing the ballast along the outside rails but not between them. Has anyone tried this method?

 I'm doing it this way... So far so good.

 Ron